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so whats the verdict? Oculus or Vive?

Discussion in 'VR Headsets and Sim Gaming - Virtual Reality' started by Boomslangnz, Jun 26, 2016.

  1. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    I know a few of you have CV1 or Vive units (if not both). What's the better one for motion racing sims and why?
  2. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    Better is always a subjective and loaded question, I am lucky I have both.

    Right now you can purchase the Rift without Touch controllers, which makes it cheaper, though I expect once Touch is out future releases will have it bundled. The Rift is lighter and easier to put on than the Vive and has slightly better resolution for text. You can mount the Rift camera on a motion rig for tracking. The downsides of the Rift are god rays, which are pretty bad if you have eye issues like astigmatism and you play sim games like ED, pupil swim where your periphery sort of floats, and little room for glasses. Rift production screen and lens quality has been variable, with red tint really bad for some and others reporting uneven grooving and smudges, exacerbating the god ray issue. For my eyes, and others, increasing the distance to the lens reduces god rays and pupil swim, at the cost of FOV.

    The Vive is a complete VR package and suits VR enthusiasts rather than sim enthusiasts. That is not to say you can't use the Vive with a motion sim, it will do seated experiences and work pretty well for 2-3DOF rigs, but unlike the Rift the Vive was designed for room scale VR and that is where its strengths are. Interestingly I can reduce the eye to lens distance on the Vive and increase the FOV while reducing the Frensal lens rings.

    There have been plenty of horror stories for Oculus and HTC help and I have experienced that with both.

    Oculus just did an about flip and removed the Rift as a hardware lock for accessing the Oculus store, after plenty of justifiable bad press. That they implemented hardware locked DRM in the first place and the lousy consumer launch do throw up Oculus red flags for me, and hence I am limiting my purchases to Steam and will re-evaluate Oculus as a store front after gen 2 VR is out and other players enter the market.

    If I was only doing VR sim experiences then I would go with the Rift, if I was a VR enthusiast first and foremost, I would go with the Vive.

    Edit - Above is my original comment from June 2016, below is an update from June 2017 which I posted here: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/vr-motion-cancellation-time-to-test.10241/page-7

    A bit of an update from my original comments on the subject, based on owning the Rift and Vive, plus doing lots of public VR demos.

    Price is now a significant factor following the Oculus price reduction, but it is not necessarily a determining one.

    It makes sense to choose the Vive if your choice is driven by above average or large roomscale, robust tracking, not wanting USB cables snaking everywhere, you plan early adoption of eye tracking, wireless and tracked peripherals, are considering motion simulation and want native motion cancellation, wear glasses or need greater adjustability for eye issues, or if you have a philosophical concern about Facebook and user data.

    Choose Oculus if your choice is driven by lower price, included audio, refined design, slightly larger sweet spot and slightly less screen door effect and you want native freebie/exclusives, or if you never plan on using tracked controllers.

    The Rift really benefits from a third sensor for roomscale but be aware it does not play nice with all USB ports or cables, plus other USB peripherals like wheels, pedals and HOTAS may complicate the USB bandwidth issues.

    The Vive controllers are great at simulating things, such as guns and swords, while Touch is better at simulating hands. Personally I prefer the Vive haptics and Oculus positional audio, but their respective counterparts are fine and not a deal breaker.

    The Vive wands can also be used in creative ways, such as a joystick, wheel or virtually any other input device: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/use-vive-wands-as-a-joystick-or-wheel.10452/

    With respect to tracking according to this data source less than 2% of Rift owners (4 cameras) experience comparative tracking with the Vive, and even then only reach those comparative figures over a much smaller tracked volume of less than 8sq m, with the average being only 3.3sq m, while the Vive average is a much more substantial 5.7sq m and can go out to an officially supported 12sq m: http://ghostline.xyz/publications/W...[{"num":1375,"gen":0},{"name":"XYZ"},0,595,0]

    In fact the Vive can actually have base stations up to 8-10m apart:



    My personal Vive playspace is big enough (8x4m) that I can also run my Rift in the area normally used by just the Vive:
    [​IMG]

    I do lots of public VR demos and have had thousands of users. In my experience there are far greater differences between individual users and use cases than there are between the Rift and Vive themselves. As a consumer you really can't go wrong with either the Rift or Vive HMD for first gen consumer PC VR, both will be superseded but that is at least a year or more off. The best thing is to try them both, preferably back to back, and then choose what suits you best, based on your own personal needs.

    There are other HMDs hitting the market later this year, which you may also want to consider, if you can wait.
    • Informative Informative x 11
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    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  3. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

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    @noorbeast great information here, imo we should stick this somewhere for future reference.
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  4. Historiker

    Historiker Dramamine Adict Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

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  5. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    yeah thanks for that. I was interested mainly as a Racing Sim experience so its sounding like the rift is the way to go for a racing motion sim aspect. I had heard the vive was more for a room experience but was not sure how it worked via sitting down etc on a rig
  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    The Vive can do seated just fine, better than the DK2, but it really shines with room scale and tracked controllers. I doubt Oculus Touch will match the tracking versatility, possibilities and range of Lighthouse coverage. In theory Lighthouse also has real possibilities for motion cancellation, but I have not yet got around to that other than discussing it with other developers that have done some tracking tests.

    There are some emerging mixed mode seated and room scale experience for the Vive, via Flyinside for FSX and Prepar3D. You can walk around and do actual pre-flight checks then hop in the plane and fly it. Further down the VR track there are similar possibilities, like having actual multiplayer driver pit exchanges, say for Bathurst or the Le mans 24hr, that would be real interesting with a hard core competitive title like iRacing.
  7. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Ill personally be waiting for CV2 etc next year. I have heard alot of mixed stuff about the CV1 etc and it doesn't sound worth the price yet
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    I expect the CV2 to perhaps be 2018 at the earliest. Oculus has not even launched Touch yet and I would expect CV2 will be at least a year or more from when Touch is widely available.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. Map63Vette

    Map63Vette Member

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    Haven't used a Vive, but just got my Rift earlier this week. Don't have a full motion rig at the moment, just a bass shaker setup, but it's definitely a different experience than a single screen. Haven't even tried triples either, but frankly I'd still say it's better than that. Part of the big change for me might have been that I never adjusted the default camera location in Assetto Corsa cockpit view (puts it low and right above the steering wheel), which the default VR view is back and up where your head would actually be. Doing that on a flatscreen might have given me a different impression, but having "sat" in an F1 car last night for some laps I'm sold.

    That being said, I'm still not sure I'd say it's worth the $600 price tag. I'm essentially treating it as a fancy monitor and though I doubt I'd sell it, I think it would be easier to recommend around $300-400. I just don't think it does enough to warrant that extra cost at this moment, but I'm also a bit frugal (which I realize sounds weird having just bought a $1000 pc and $600 headset, but hopefully you get my point).
  10. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    If you are serious about your sim racing, then I don't think VR can currently match a good three screen setup. It just does not have the resolution. I'm not a serious sim racer, so would only go down that route if there was something stopping VR being compatible with my sim. As it stands with the cost, current resolution and god rays comments I have had back when demonstrating CV1, I could still only recommend VR to techno nuts like ourselves. What is telling is that from all my friends and the many Engineers at work, I am the only one who has, or has even thought about getting a VR headset. Still early days with VR as I see it.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  11. Archie

    Archie Eternal tinkerer

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    3 x 46" screens (in AU$) $1200 ($399 each from Kogan for example) (Not even good Refresh Rate screens at that price point)
    3 x Wallmounts @$50.00
    3 x Plugs N/A
    3 x HDMI / DP cables @$5-$15 $15-$45
    Real Estate for everything.

    (Yes - I know you need a GTX 970 / R390, but come on... Everyone must have that as a minimum to be on here!! :p )

    Oculus Rift approx AU$1077 shipped (from Oculus site) or under $1000 if you can snaffle one from Ebay.
    No Real Estate.

    Or... in laymans terms.

    Me to my Work Colleagues: "I'm buying 3 x 46" screens"
    Work Colleagues: "Cool.. What for?, Oh the Sim. OK. Cool. Oh look, some paint drying / fluff in my belly button"

    Me to my Work Colleagues: "I'm buying an Oculus Rift"
    Work Colleagues: "No F-ing way.. can we come around? What games you got? Have you checked this out, that out, what about this and that on and that other...."

    :D
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  12. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    well i bit the bullet and ordered a rift last week. It will be interesting to compare it to my 180 degree curved projection screen with 2 x projectors and my experience when I had a dk2. I sold my dk2 as the resolution just was too poor for me and i was suffering from motion sickness alot especially once used with a motion sim.

    Ill be using both rift and projectors anyway as rift supports barely any games at the moment and I dont wanna be stuck only playing that small range of games
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  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    The CV1 improves resolution @Boomslangnz, but the quality is an evolution and not a revolution, VR is still a long way from 4k screens.

    If your computer is beefy enough the Oculus debug tool lets you use supersampling, which increases the crispness of the images, but uses significant system resources: http://www.roadtovr.com/improve-oculus-rift-game-image-quality-using-this-tool-oculus-debug-tool/

    The real difference you will notice is the Fresnel lenses, which are bitter sweet. They increase the sweet spot, but at the cost of god rays and the fine lines of the lenses themselves. It pays to spend time adjusting the fit of the Rift to minimise the down side of Fresnel lenses, but how much you notice things like god rays depends a bit on the quality of your own vision.

    Different people are more susceptible than others to VR sickness. Some are not bothered, some adapt by doing repeated short sessions in VR, stopping whenever they feel the slightest bit off, and some people never adapt. A well known Valve VR dev Chet is one who has never got their VR legs and sparked some controversy when commenting on it a couple of days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4rzrrn/valves_chet_faliszek_on_twitter_can_we_stop/

    With VR and motion it is best to alter you motion profiles so they have shorter but faster axis movements. If there is any perceived lag then a motion sim will exacerbate your VR sickness sensitivity, conversely if you have really fast accurate motion then it will help reduce sensitivity for many, as it gives the brain addition reinforcing cues that match the visuals.
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    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  14. Archie

    Archie Eternal tinkerer

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    Got my Rift today. I'm hopefully going to set it up and test tonight so I can post back what I think tomorrow. I say hopefully, as kids / wife sometimes have other ideas for my time.

    I know right... the nerve...
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  15. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    . I'm guessing that this response was not against my comment above as it is totally irrelevant o_O.
  16. Archie

    Archie Eternal tinkerer

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    Correct @SeatTime - Just going off personal opinion. Essentially, if Rift had been out at the time, I would not have invested in triple screens.
  17. Archie

    Archie Eternal tinkerer

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    Rift is A W E S O M E. I went in totally open minded, not really knowing what to expect, and I have to say it was better then I imagined!

    This would sound stupid to those using VR, but I underestimated the 3D effect you get via HMD. I mean, I've seen 3D movies, but this is something else. It PUTS you in the environment.
    Apollo VR, you enter space and a pen floats across your face. You could swear you feel it touch your nose!!
    Elite Dangerous - Every time the VR pilot moved his hands, it freaked me out!
    The TREX on Dream deck..
    The High Rise view on Dream deck...

    AC, Project Cars - WOW!

    I could go on..

    Simply, if you have the means, get one!
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  18. DEADBEEF

    DEADBEEF New Member

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    When comparing VR to a three screen setup with regards to a motion simulator you also have to remember that the three screens and all the associated mounting hardware adds a significant amount of mass that needs supporting, and will add quite a bit of extra inertia, especially as the screens will typically be quite a way from the centre of mass/rotation of the platform.

    All that extra mass & inertia might mean you need bigger motors, bigger actuators, bigger motor controllers, bigger power supplies, etc.

    Something definitely worth thinking about.

    ---

    But yeah, VR doesn't currently quite have the resolution or pricepoint for mainstream adoption, or even widespread adoption amongst sim-racers. Assuming it generates enough adoption to warrant further hardware & software investment I can definitely see it becoming the de facto standard for sim titles though.

    If anything the current generation VR is just a foot in the door to enable devs to start figuring out what works, what doesn't, what people are willing to pay for, how much they're willing to pay.
  19. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    Glad VR exceeded your expectations @Archie. Tacked controllers and room scale deepen the immersion even further.
  20. f1iceman

    f1iceman Why So Serious ? ( The Joker )

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    not switched my triples on since dk2 on my outer screens it looks good but thats about it to me, the cv1 rules for driving sims to me i tried going to a single monitor and lasted 1 lap in ac and that was that and how much i love my rift.
    its all about getting a good gpu to up the graphics and sweeten the rift up to give the extra details to bring it to the next level but its hard with 90fps to hold.