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Change to 6DOF with XX motors for Racing

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by Stefan4DOF, Feb 17, 2021.

  1. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi everybody (as the cheap doctor from The Simpsons used to say)

    My name is Stefan

    I am from Denmark and have always been fascinated, by racing games, and after the first time i saw a moving simulator my future path was made.
    well that was many years ago, but it is never too late.
    i am thinking of a 4DOF system with something like 24 volt engines and an Arduino to control them.
    i hope i can get some inspiration here, and maybe give something back if i should be so lucky to reach that level.

    I have my brother in the project as well to boost the Arduino part.

    i have a simpel developer PC and will do some trials with small Arduino engines to act with the game Live For Speed.
    As i understand that is the most simpel game to run on a small pc as my developer PC.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    First step :)

    I have bought a few sensor kits for Arduino and i bought the car kit for Arduino. that way we will try and make the engines in that kit run as we want them to.

    Next i will install Simtools on the PC and try and make the engines run as they should on the final setup.

    I guess i will use the Simtools version 2.5.1 as this is the newest, i just need to get the license for this.

    Then creating the connection to the Arduino and making the engines react will be a huge milestone for us.

    Hope to see you soon
    Stefan
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Welcome @Stefan4DOF.

    You will find plenty of helpful information in the FAQs, in particular check out the SimTools, fundamentals of motion and the design sections, plus the Arduino section for the required code: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/

    I would suggest you try the SMC3 code version for whatever drivers you choose to use, as SMC3 has an app for configuration that is pretty easy to use, with nice visual feedback: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/arduino-code-for-use-with-various-hardware-and-simtools.31/

    The demo version of SimTools has the fully functional plugin for Live For Speed bundled with it, specifically for testing purposes: https://www.lfs.net/downloads

    Do grab a copy of the SimTools manual and keep it handy for reference: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/rtfm-start-with-the-official-simtools-documentation.117/
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  4. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    hi Noorbeast

    Thank you for all the good information and help you have already given us.
    you mentioned that we can start and download a demoversion of simtools? where do i find the demo version?
    i have been to Simtools homepage, but i guess i did not see any demo version.

    i also tried for a free license here, but i am pretty sure i got rejected because i really do not have anything to show here. :)
    and of course i will not have any as the first thing we do will be testing the arduino with Simtools :)

    The Demo version could get us started and see if we are way off.
  5. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    You can download SimTools here and it will operate in demo mode until licensed: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/marketplace/motion-simulation-software-simtools.63/

    You are correct re free license.

    To qualify for a free license:

    • You must be building a true DIY motion simulator. (Not built from a kit or purchased from a simulator seller, a model simulator does not qualify.)
    • Have a unique build thread or Showcase in DIY Simulator Projects. (The thread should show some effort, which means it should show progress to the rig testing phase.)
    • Have been a member of the community for at least 30 days.
  6. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 4DOF
    So here is my Arduino car kit with my Arduino Uno on and a motor controller below.
    now we will try to make each wheel spin on demand from Simtools.
    car top.jpg car bottom.jpg
    what we are missing are the feedback to the Arduino af how much the wheel has spun.

    i am not much for a potentiometer as they will be broken fast as far as i know.
    i imagine some sort of encoder should do the trick. so i am trying to find out what kind of signal an encoder would give so i will know what to simulate right now were i do not have the actual encoders.
  7. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi @Stefan4DOF,
    you can safely use hall effect sensors like this one: 6127V1A180L.5FS
    They are wired in the same way as usual potentiometers, but are more durable and don‘t have an end stop. That means they don‘t break during a 360 degrees turn.
    Besides, the Arduino sketches that you find in this forum are usually written for potentiometers and not for optical encoders, so that your start will be easier.

    I wish you good luck and much fun with your project.
    • Like Like x 1
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  8. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi @MarkusB

    thank you very much for your responce. Thats means a lot to us.
    We will use that.

    We have also changed our strategy.
    I will buy one motor and gear, the potmeter and the motordriver. Then we will test if this will be the right combination, by testing it with load attached.
    The motors i can buy here in Denmark or Europe are very expensive.
    Maybe i am searching for the wrong type.

    Does anyone know if it is true that a stepper motor is not a good choice to use in these kind of racing simulators?
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2021
  9. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 4DOF
    SO... i have now changed the project to a 6DOF.
    The approach has also been changed.
    as i searched the marked for DC motors and the needed extra stuff i started being a bit frustrated as all prices was very high.

    Why i now have this question for all you experienced guys. Hopefully a lot of us can use this info that will come from this.

    We have different motors to chose from.

    Stepper motor
    DC motor
    AC motor
    Servo motor / servo drive

    What are the advantages / disadvantages by using the different motors for a 6DOF lever simulator for racing.
    power/speed, Price, ease of use, stability.

    i like the idear of using 750W servo drives and then a thanos AMC, but it is a very expensive solution for me.

    In europe prices can be quite high for this considering tax and customs if parts are from outside EU.
    this how ever is not to considered now.

    @noorbeast @yobuddy @SilentChill @Pierre Lalancette @SeatTime @RaceRay
    @eaorobbie @MarkusB

    i hope it is okay that i have added you guys as you might be the most experienced ones to solve this puzzle.
    or maybe direct me to someone who can?
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  10. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Servo drives and @Thanos drive is somewhat expensive, but has grown as a desirable approach because costs have come into the DIY range, and you get high performance and simplicity.

    I think if you do an all in cost, comparing servos and DCs, the price gap is not that wide when comparing hardware that can produce similar performance.

    That does not mean DC is rubbish, it is just declining in terms of popularity when it comes to the likes of high performance 6DOF and other rigs.
    • Like Like x 2
  11. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    The AC motor solutions are controlled by a vfd, and from what I have seen, they can only reverse direction x number of times a second.
    So this solution is best fit for a flight simulator in my opinion, since you don't really need a ton of sudden changes in directions.

    DC systems are awesome in that they are analog controlled, and therefor can change directions as fast as your hardware allows. This is why a couple of windshield wiper motor can build an awesome seat-mover sim.
    The real handicap with Dc powered systems, is the power source gets expensive quickly when using voltages over 12v.
    (Servo systems are basically DC systems with position feedback built in I believe. )
    (So it's not so much that Dc is declining, its just maturing a bit i think)

    For what its worth, I believe the next thing we will start seeing will be 48v lower cost servo systems.
    But only time will tell.
    Take care, and hope it helps.
    yobuddy
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  12. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    If you are building a 6DOF, very hard to beat a AC servo setup for overall cost, ease of setup and performance. Don't get these servos mixed up with the old/big AC motor setups.
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Pierre Lalancette

    Pierre Lalancette Sir Lalancelot Gold Contributor

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    I only know DC analog controlled system. I can't tell what is best or not.
    I can only tell that cheap parts can only take you that far.
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  14. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi all

    @noorbeast @yobuddy @Pierre Lalancette @SeatTime

    thank you for your comments, it is good to hear your thoughts.

    I believe more and more that i will go for the servo solution.
    An electrician at work told me that if i want to use a servo system at home, then i need to change the HPFI safety switch (a must have in danish power supply boards for houses) to a class that does not switch off that easy. Does any of you have experience with this?

    I noticed none of you mentioned stepper motors even though they are widely used in CNC machinery and such.
    Is there a reason for not using those?
  15. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    you may be able to use wheelchair motors for a 6dof as I did

    they are available at a reasonable price and there are plenty of them second hand

    i think stepper motors may be ok for a motion sim - but remember they have to move one step at a time so they can not use PID tuning to get from one position to another quickly
    • Like Like x 1
  16. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Mine and nearly all house in Australia have a safety ELCB system fitted to the mains board. My 3 x 1.8kw AC servo motors have never tripped it (although your safety system may be different)I have tried stepper motors and found them to be noisy and their torque drops off greatly as speed increases.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi all again
    some time has past since my last post, but a lot of things has happend :)

    I decided to go with the AC servo solution. I bought 6 pcs of 80ST-M4025 (220) at a 1000W.
    Hint:
    Be careful when buying stuff from china, i thought i bought 90ST version, as it was next to the 90ST version of the 750W... and it has turned out to be difficult to buy gears for the 80ST size.
    here i am testing them all to see if they work without any bad noises/errors.
    2.jpg
  18. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi SeatTime
    Thx for you advice.
    when i tested the servos i borrowed a filter to put in between the power source and the drive (see post above).
    i also tried without it, and so far it has not given any problems.
    I have also tried to see if i could measure the "noise" but i could not conclude anything for sure of that.
    3.jpg 5.jpg
    Just in case something happens i bought 3 filters to install later (2 on each phase). They should be a good quality and they did not cost much. :)
    filtre.jpg Filter.jpg
  19. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 4DOF
    GEAR

    In my hunt for gears i finally found someone in china that had a lot of different gears, but just not the one i needed. they seemed to be some sort of manufacture, but who knows :)
    anyway i wrote to him what i needed and then he asked me to send a picture of my email address, as i think it is filtered away when writing that on ebay.
    then a few days later he came back with a drawing of the gear he could make to meet my needs.
    Geartegning.jpg
    Lucky i have a colleague that reads chinese :)

    But it seemed as a straight up drawing, and the price were not bad either. I ordered 6 pcs, payed and.....
    Did not hear much.
    then after 2 weeks i asked when they will be shipped? and they replyed that they were testing them...
    One week later i recieved a tracking number, a week later i recieved them. :)
    gear2.jpg
    i then started testing them on the same motor and 2 of the said some grinding noises a few times, after that i recorded on video the testing of the remaining gears, but when i installed the first 2 gears again later the noises were not there? and i did not get those original noises on video. I can only wait and see what will happen.
    alt.jpg
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 4DOF
    CONTROLLER

    I bought the Thanos AMC-ASSD-15A solution, as i needed something that would not be too difficult for me to work with.
    I bought the one with remote display and recieved it fast.
    Amc-aasd15a-pure.jpg
    There are files on thingiverse to 3D print the housing, but it is not easy to find the parts for the remote version. and i printed the other set first, until i finally found the right files.
    But there are some serious problems with these files. A lot of material has to be cut of afterwards before the controller will fit. I made mine in ABS.
    HINT:
    if you are about to use them, try and see if you can increase the size of the holes for the 6 plugs. Also the hole in the buttom part for the remote plug needs to be larger and it is not positioned correctly sideways.
    I do not have software to do it, i am not even sure if it possible when you only have .stl files??

    @Thanos Hi Thanos, i am not sure if it was me that did something wrong, but maybe you have thought about this also and could change the files if needed?

    3dprint.jpg Amc-aasd15a.jpg
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Stefan4DOF

    Stefan4DOF New Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    ASSEMBLY

    I am going to make a test setup.
    with wheels..LOL
    Plade-hjul.jpg Pladetegning.jpg

    I have made some brackets of 5mm aluminium, and are now installing it all.
    Motorbeslag.jpg Motor-med-beslag.jpg Motorer-montage.jpg

    I the made 1 lever, as i wanted to see the movement of the motor, and only one as i am not sure it will hold even just here in the test setup :)
    Motorer-med-arm.jpg Arm.jpg
    • Like Like x 4