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Axis Assignments?

Discussion in 'SimTools DIY Version' started by Keroppi, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    I am a newbie here, setting up from scratch, and I can't quite wrap my head around the axis assignments screen. I read the manual repeatedly, and maybe I am just stupid, but as far as I can glean, the 'DOF 1-6' are the *actual* 6 degrees of force, and the 'axis' are not actually axis at all, but *actuators* to provide 1 (or more) of the DoF?

    (If this is true):
    Why the hell are they labelled DoF1, DoF2, etc? Why wouldn't they be named to the *actual* DoF (pitch, thrust, etc)? Is there any benefit to them being arbitrary, or does this just add confusion for confusion's sake?
    If there is no benefit, it would be MUCH more comprehensible to name them the actual DoF.

    I have Rock N Ride, 2 DoF, where a single actuator controls a single DoF. Is the attached picture correct?

    Thanks in advance!

    [​IMG]
  2. Ads Master

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  3. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    You can assign up to 6 DOF's per Axis.
    So in your pic axis 1 is assigned to roll as 100% and axis 2 is assigned to pitch at 100%.

    I suggest you load a couple of the presets to take a look at what's going on.
    yobuddy
  4. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi @yobuddy, thank you for your response!
    So an axis is in fact an "acuator" then?
    I checked out the presets, but it didn't help. For example, the preset for rock n ride (which I own) set an axis for heave and sway (of which the sim does neither) and put them BOTH under DoF 1...which didn't make sense.

    The example in the user manual seemed to make sense, and verify what I think:
    1) That DoF 1-6 ARE roll, pitch,yaw,etc. and are named arbitrarily for no apparent reason
    2) The axis are actuators and their actions can cause any combination of DoF by construction/combination.

    This http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/6dof-preset.5800/ 6 DoF proile seems to confirm it as well, just want to be sure.

    Why are DoF 1-6 not named specifically?

    Thanks!!
  5. bsft

    bsft

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    what are you intending to build? 2DOF?
    Axis one and two represent the motors on a 2 DOF. You would need to test each to get the motors moving right, hence highlighting one of the boxes or both, or none at all.
    Each DOF is what you set to the axis' talked about, so axis 1 and 2 would, for example, use pitch, then DOF2 roll, DOF3, sway, DOF4 surge, DOF 5 heave. It doesn not have to be exactly like that, I am only giving an example.
    I suggest you read this document,
    http://www.xsimulator.net/community...-set-up-simtools-jrks-and-write-profiles.112/
    just skip to the profile part, it may explain more , the doc is based on a 2DOF
    I will give you more coins as well
    Dave.
  6. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi Dave, thank you very much for the coins and explanation.
    I currently have a 2 DoF (RnR chair), I plan to eventually build up to a 6 DoF.
    Your guide will definitely help in tuning the game, once I get that far. I read the profiles section and it makes sense to me, and corroborates what I have been thinking.

    This is exactly what I was asking about. WHY are the DoF not already labelled? It adds SO much confusion for new users...if it was already labelled I would have understood enough to not have to ask the question to begin with.
    If there is no good reason for them to be arbitrary (is there a good reason?), I think this should be a feature request for a next version. Where could I submit?

    Also, my confusion was worsened by the preset for RnR chair...if you load it, you will see that it is borked. Probably nobody checked, since I am probably the only person here using such a pathetic old sim and it doesn't (currently) work in SimTools anyway without heavy modification...I was surprised to see it included at all.

    Anyway, thanks again, and if anyone could let me why about the DoF labeling I would appreciate it.
  7. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    @yobuddy:
    A feature request for the next version of this awesome program:
    I believe part of my confusion of the axis assignments was due to the unnecessary arbitrary naming of the DoF in SimTools. I believe if they were named specifically it would be very beneficial to new users (and also make the 'force' drop down box redundant). Less consequential, it would also be nice to be able to rename the 'axis' themselves. An example of what I was thinking:

    [​IMG]

    Thanks for all your hard work! Cheers!
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    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Just include @yobuddy as the developer of SimTools will bring the feature request to his attention.
  9. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    @Keroppi, you can only use 6 DOF's per axis, of which a plugin can have up to 9 DOF's.

    what your suggesting is to have all 9 dof's listed at the top, but only let the user select 6 of them?
    So every time the user selects 6 DOF's from a given axis row, the rest of the DOF's for that AXIS would need to disable themselves.
    To me this just causes a bigger GUI and some confusion.
    This is why I choose to do it the way I did.

    Also, about the AXIS naming;
    You assign an Axis output in the interface section, so leaving them named as Axis1 thru 6 only makes sense to me.
    As you use <Axis1> to output axis 1 data from a given interface and so on...

    I hope than makes sense?

    also keep in mind that with a 2dof simulator (a seat mover) the user would use sway and surge to run the simulator.
    As the user wants to ride the G-Forces of the game. Roll and Pitch would just tip the chair with the car in the game.

    take care!
    yobuddy
  10. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi @yobuddy
    No, I was recommending to have the same exact 6 DoF listed at the top, same as it currently is, simply renamed to the actual 6 DoF names. The "extra" 3 DoF the plug in provides are not set here and still wouldn't be. To my understanding, when a user sets up their profile, they arbitrarity assign DoF 1 as "pitch" for example, then underneath it they assign every axis (actuator) that assists in pitch force the pitch DoF in the dropdown. If they make DoF 2 to be "heave" they would do the same, rinse repeat for all DoF used. No deselecting of anything. I was not using the actual assignments in the example pic at all, i did not set them, just the labels I has showing.

    My recommendation was simply to preassign the DoF name and pre-select that force, which every example I have seen is the same, am I missing something?

    I understand an axis is set to interface #(x)...but to be able to name them is simply a convenience...to easily remember which actual motor/actuator the user has assigned to axis 1-6.

    I also understand the you can assign any axis to assist in any forces, but in the case of rock n ride chair, the only literal movement is pitch and roll. "Just tip the chair".. that's all the chair LITERALLY does. Seems much made for flight sims, which use less heave/sway/thrust..
  11. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    @yobuddy
    ...unless the case that I am not understanding something. But this is the most elaborate preset I have seen, it is all 6 DoF, and 6 axis/motot, made by user vulbas:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ...and I seen many other presets like this one. User decides which DoF 1-6 equals and then has to assign that force. Under every DoF is the same force assigned for the actuators that assist in that force.
    So my idea would be like the example: DoF 1 pre-named Roll, 2=Pitch, 3=Heave, etc. Why would it be beneficial to assign this all manually?

    You are obviously much more intelligent in this than me, so it makes me feel like there is a good reason NOT to do this, and that I am missing something fundamental (that should be super obvious to me,) so I want to understand!

    The axis label still makes sense to me. Totally not necessary, but I can see no reason it wouldn't be helpful.
  12. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  13. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    @Keroppi, you would need 9 dof's columns to do it that way thou?
    (roll, pitch, heave, yaw, sway, surge, extra1, extra2, extra3)

    btw, here is how I would do a basic Rock,n,Ride chair.
    1.jpg

    I may even add a bit of heave to the surge axis,
    2.jpg

    And you can even add a bit of tipping with the car for the game,
    Now you have g-forces and degrees all working with the sim.
    3.jpg

    If I had a sim with yaw, I would probably use extra1 (usually traction loss) with washout on and a bit of deadzone added...
    anyway, I hope this helps clear up why I did it this way?
    yobuddy
  14. Keroppi

    Keroppi New Member Gold Contributor

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    @yobuddy @noorbeast
    Thank you so much, I think it has finally clicked!
    I was under the impression that the DoF columns were actually an "assignment" of sorts, due in no small part to many of the presets I had seen making them match up, which is systematic, but not necessary.
    yobuddy's last example has made it clear, that they are, in effect, just the DoF's that an axis can enforce in a manner. DoF 1 just pertains to the "first" (usaually primary) DoF that it enforces, DoF 2, is 2nd, and so on.

    Once/if earobbie modifies his K8055 plugin, I will use the RnR example you posted as a starting point.

    So, now that it all makes sense, there is one last thing that *doesn't*:
    In the rare instance of a 6 DoF/6 Axis sim (such as vulbas' profile shown above) where all 6 axis must engage in some way to make all 6 DoF, *shouldn't* DoF 7-9 (to account for Extra 1-3) be included columns?

    Without them, how could vulbas make his sim act on all "9" DoF? It seems in his scenario, he cannot in any way take advantage of extra1-3 by his design? But adding 3 more columns would enable him to do so?
  15. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    I believe he is trying to run a Stewart platform from SimTools.
    While he is getting pretty good results with SimTools 2d math, this platform would be better driven by inverse kinematics.
    Something I hope to have as an option someday.

    If anyone would like to help me knock out the math for a Stewart platform.
    Let me know!

    I'd like to find formulas for both linear and rotational output so the builder could use either with their simulator.
    yobuddy
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  16. value1

    value1 Nerd Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    @yobuddy, @Keroppi
    I like this proposal. I remember, I was confused when I saw the Axis Assignments page for the first time.
    And yes, it would be 9 effects.
  17. Miguel Rocha

    Miguel Rocha New Member

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    I know this is old but i'm having trouble understanding this part of the software.

    From what i can tell this works like this. Each Axis can have a role on any of the 6 DOFs depending on the actual way they where designed, even if that role is zero.

    The six DOFs are Heave, Sway, Surge, Yaw, Pitch and Roll. I don't know what are the 3 Extras. I read somewhere that Extra1 is Yaw so i don't see the need of it, but maybe Extra1 is something else.

    And that we don't need to put Roll in DOFx in every Axis, we can have Roll weight of Axis1 in DOF1 and the weight of Axis2 to Roll on DOF3, the software doesn't mind where they are inserted on the table, it calculates correctly anyway.

    So for example, for one DOF, Axis1 as a weight of x, Axis2 of y and Axis3 of z, in a way that x + y + z = 100%, or if we don't want the full range less than 100%.

    From the manual and the forum i got that all the values of the various DOFs on one axis should be 100%, and this i don't understand.
    Why can't an axis have 50% in one DOF, 50% on another, 20% on another, 30% on another and so on, why does it have to sum 100%.

    On the first example in the manual there is a SimforceGT which says on the text can do Roll and Pitch.
    But on the DOF table it is used Sway and Surge, why isn't Roll and Pitch used instead.
    On example two is exactly the same, Sway and Surge are used and not Roll and Pitch.

    I thought that all the axis weights that contribute to one DOF all summed up should be at most 100% but from what i could read on the manual and on the forum all the values of one axis summed up should be 100% (i don't get it).

    What are the 3 Extras, why aren't the six common DOFs enough.

    And why are there different Axis Assignments per game, isn't Heave, Sway, Surge, Yaw, Pitch and Roll always Heave, Sway, Surge, Yaw, Pitch and Roll no matter the game, or are they there just to fine tune.

    Thanks in advance for any explanations.
  18. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Extras 1, 2 and 3 can be used for other purposes, in some flight sims they are used for alternate approaches to roll and sway, Extra 1 is commonly used for traction loss in race games.

    Axis assignment totals can exceed 100%, but the thing to be mindful of is the probability of clipping. In a flight sim on a basic 2DOF you can possibly have 80% or more allocated to say roll and pitch, as for civil aviation simulation it is very unlikely that the full range of the allocation for both roll and pitch will occur at the same time. But is is far more likely in a race car profile, even there you can go a little over 100%, but it is not a good idea to push it too far, as clipping is likely: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/axis-assignment-percentage-totals.120/

    Games don't always output consistent data in the same way, so a motion profile is tweaked on a per game basis, though Axis Assignment is only one part of that: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/steps-to-create-a-motion-profile.228/
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  19. Miguel Rocha

    Miguel Rocha New Member

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    Thanks.

    Ok, so if an axis has a role in various DOFs and those DOFs happens at the same time it can clip, now i get the reason for the 100% per axis, it just adds to the complexity of trying to get a moving profile, it 's just another constraint on the system. I've seen examples of around 130% but i guess if clipping is avoided there's no problem. By the way, how can i monitor clipping from within simtools or should i use something like SMC3Utils.

    If all the possible motions are represented by the 6 DOFs why the extras? Couldn't them, whatever they are, be mapped on the 6 defaults.

    I still don't get the examples from the manual, aren't we suppose to mirror our hardware on this table, if axis1 does x, and axis2 y. Isn't that what this table is for. That is, my axis1 is 100% roll, and my axis2 is 100% pitch. Shouldn't be this that we put on the table, our hardware capabilities and if a game sends a yaw that yaw is converted in a roll/pitch movement automatically, or are we supposed to do this auto job ourselves and this table is just that, that is, i'm the one that has to put that yaw is 10% axis1, and 5% axis2. (these are random numbers).

    And if this second part is true, from one example of the manual, shouldn't it be axis1 - 100% roll, 50% sway, 50% surge, which makes 200% total, way over the 100% objective.
  20. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    SimTools is designed to be flexible and accommodate all sorts of rigs, it even allows say a 2DOF to have a motion profile that includes roll, pitch, sway, surge, and simulated heave, with each being an Axis allocation on each of the 2 axis. The only time you will have a 100% axis allocation is when the axis is solely dedicated, like with traction loss.

    SimTools does not just provide the option of additions, like Extras 1, 2 and 3, it also can designate a and b axis, which allows something like a 6DOF + full G-seat with some Extras if needed.

    You can use the Virtual Axis in Output Testing to check % of axis used for given allocations.
  21. Miguel Rocha

    Miguel Rocha New Member

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    Ok, so flexibility takes preference over normalization.

    Can you please explain the examples from the manual, just this case, the others i can deduce, shouldn't the profile be axis1 - 100% roll, 50% sway, 50% surge. The manual lists axis1 - 50% sway and 50% surge, roll isn't even configured even though the physical axis is a 100% roll.

    Thanks again.