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Question Project Cars traction loss moving while stopped

Discussion in 'SimTools Pro & Entertainment Version' started by mauricioss9, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. mauricioss9

    mauricioss9 New Member

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    Hello,

    I just setup Project cars in simtools and I am having a problem with the motion. The traction loss axis 3a is moving from side to side non stop, even when I am in the pits before starting the race. I got the plugin I found in the downloads section and below you can find my information and settings. Do you know what be happening and could you guys give me a hand.

    Commercial or DIY: Commercial
    DOF (Number of axles ): 3DOF
    Actuators (DIY, SCN5 etc.): SCN6
    Interface (Arduino, SCN, Mega, DIY etc. ): Came with the actuators

    SimTools

    Version: 2.1
    Game Plugin: Iracing, Assetto Corsa, Dirt Rally and others
    Settings (Relevant ones): Most settings are as per the quick-start guide
    SimTools Licence type: Pro

    Axis settings Pcars 1.PNG
    Axis settings Pcars 2.PNG
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  4. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    You can also try adding a bit of DeadZone to the axis.
    But it does sound like the max/min values need adjusted as noorbeast suggests.
    yobuddy
  5. Mats

    Mats New Member Gold Contributor

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    @mauricioss9
    Yes, As @noorbeast and @yobuddy suggest, try andjusting to a higher value for traction loss in tuningcenter.
    I think you have the same Commercial simulator i have, Try a value 7-9 for TL.
    Rembember to capture Min/Max values for Project Cars in tuning center!

    @noorbeast
    Regarding, "not over 100% total DOF."
    I have read "all" documentation, threads, FAQs regarding Simtools, and have tested a lot regarding %DOF settings/Tuning Center.

    last weekend i disabled all forces except the "pitch" and that was set to 25%
    Tried to find out if 20%-25% DOF settings for forces was possible for good motion. Total (100%-125%)
    No matter how i try with lower values in tuning center, it was impossible to adjust for a good motion regarding "pitch".
    I end up with DOF 50-60% for "pitch".

    Note, i am not using the "Profile manager" this is always set to 100% (Total) and 0 -+ For all the other forces.

    I personally believe there is hard to get any good motion not go over the 100% total for some simulators.

    If i understood things correctly, Tuningcenter act like a "lever/Gearbox"
    So i don´t understand the problem with total high DOF% if you have high values in tuningcenter.
  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    I said around 100% @Mats as SimTools 2 is actually far more forgiving than 1.3.

    And yes design issues do have an impact on tuning.

    But numbers like 260% total suggest the motion profile needs far more refinement.

    What cars and tracks you choose for developing a motion profile also matters.

    In the end a good motion profile is part science and seemingly black magic, but the latter is really the result of a long time spent honing your tuning knowledge and skills as much as it is about refining the motion profile itself.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Mats

    Mats New Member Gold Contributor

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    If you have high values i tuningcenter, Why is there a problem with a total high like 260% ? Other than maybe losing details, Clipping.
    What is the upper limit 150%-180%?
    In simtools 2 there is a possibility to set one DOF to 150%..
    Yes, i understand this if you have two simulators running at the same time, and only one set of tuningcenter values.
  8. Mats

    Mats New Member Gold Contributor

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    I understand that there will be a problem with high DOF % If only captured min/max values are used, and not adjusting the values to higher settings in tuning center manually.

    Example: Project cars have a min/max value for Pitch +- 10
    If the DOF% is set to 100% for Pitch, when/if the game outputs + or - 10 then the full range of the axis is used.
    Then if the tuningcenter value is increased to 20. (Still 100% DOF for Pitch) then only 50% of axis travel/range is used.

    If a lower value i used in tuning center (Still 100% DOF for Pitch) then also 100% of axis travel/range is used, but reaching this quicker due to lower tuning center value.

    If i understood things correctly DOF% is % of force (Data from game to use), NOT travel/range for axis.

    Depending on the Min/Max values in tuning center, the game engine calculates total axis travel/range for axis.
    So in theory 100% DOF for all forces can be used .. yes, it's only an example..
    But a high setting is necessary in tuning Center for all that forces to avoid clipping, reach max travel/range for axis.

    Please correct me if i got all this wrong.
  9. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    A proper balance of allocations is required @mat, including avoiding clipping when a DOF serves multiple axis/forces, which is the case with a 3DOF for all but the traction loss, where 100% is appropriate as it only serves one force.
  10. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Clipping is the biggest issue.
    Because if you set Surge to 60% and it actually uses 60% of the axis.
    There is not allot left for other DOF's.
    Another problem could be math overflow problems, but I have yet to see any of that.
    yobuddy
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  11. mauricioss9

    mauricioss9 New Member

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    I was able to fix the problem with Pcars TL. Once I got to capture Min/Max I could see that the TL was coming up at +/- 0.032 and that was the problem. I adjusted Extra 1 to +/- 10 and no more problem. Thanks for the tip.

    I have been trying to get better setups for my games but this is no easy task for sure. You can take a whole day of tweaking. I took Noorbeast's advice and lowered the total DOF for axis 1 and 2 and raised a bit for TL and I believe it did help. The setup I have for Pcars now seems to be almost the way I want, which is maximum reality, but I think I still need some more tweaking, what you guys think?

    Pcars fixed 1.PNG
    Pcars fixed 2.PNG
    Pcars tuning.PNG
  12. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    It is up to yourself but just looking at the numbers 200% total for axis 1 and 2 is still way too high and Tuning Center values look like they need a lot more tweaking.

    A Video showing the rig movement and screen at the same time will assist members to make recommendations.
  13. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Got a pic of your sim buddy?
    yobuddy
  14. Mats

    Mats New Member Gold Contributor

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    Clipping is the biggest issue.
    Because if you set Surge to 60% and it actually uses 60% of the axis.
    There is not allot left for other DOF's.
    Another problem could be math overflow problems, but I have yet to see any of that.
    yobuddy




    @yobuddy,
    Yes, but if that 60% surge is set with high - + big numbers in tuningcenter, Then the axis is never clipp.. ? (physical range axis travel)
    Where is the risk for clipping, in the math calculation axis travel?

    I get the best results with high numbers in tuning center and high DOF% rather than the opposite.
    The motion feeling is mutch more linear.

    Small numbers in tuning center max out more quickly than big numbers, And i like to have more linear range/data used from the game.

    Yesterday i tried to set all DOF% to 100% and the boundary filter to 20%-30%. (2x SCN6)
    Very nice movement and no problems at all.

    Can you please explain the calculations simtools is using for DOF% physical range axis travel

    If i understood things correctly DOF% is % of force (Data from game to use), NOT travel/range for axis.
    So in theory you can max out the travel/range for axis with low %DOF also.?

    Is the example i posted earlier right or have i got all this wrong ?
  15. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Your physical axes can only do 100%.
    All the way down or all the way up.
    DOF means degree of force of which we have 6 with 3 optional.
    Roll, Pitch, Heave, Yaw, Sway and Surge (and Extra1 thru 3).

    So if you set multiple DOF's at 100% output for each, and one of them uses 100% for any reason, then there is no room left for any other DOF. (and clipping occurs)

    So when only one DOF is being assigned to a axis, I use 100%.
    When 2 are being assigned I use 120% (60 each) as most of the time both won't be using 100% at the same time, and I can get a bit more length on the axis from each DOF this way.

    I usually auto capture my Max/Min values from the game by driving 80% as hard as I normally would for a lap, crossing my wheels over the curb a few times to get good heave data. Click save and that's it really.

    Its not that what you are doing is wrong, its just that there can be major clipping going on making the ride less realistic. But if it makes you smile when you ride your sim, your doing something right!
    Take Care,
    yobuddy
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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  16. ilbiga

    ilbiga Active Member

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    if I understand well, the percentage that checks each axis must take into the total? (100%).

    For example, if I have only pitch and roll on Axis 1, I have to allocate 50% + 50% (see attachment), but if I have pitch, roll and heave, for example, I should keep around 33% + 33% + 33% ?!?

    I have always believed that every percentage was about strength on the single axis ...

    Thanks for the clarification, @yobuddy !!! :thumbs:thumbs:thumbs
    simtools.jpg

    Attached Files:

  17. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    If an allocation serves more than one axis/force then yes it should total around 100%.

    However, that does not necessarily mean you always distribute the allocations evenly, rather what % you allocate depends on the design of the rig.

    If it is just roll and pitch then 50/50 is not a bad split, but if you have say a traditional 2DOF doing surge, sway, heave, pitch and roll then likely you would have higher allocations for something like sway and much lower allocations for the likes of heave, but the total should really be around 100%, you can go a little over, but you have to be careful not to overdo it.
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  18. ilbiga

    ilbiga Active Member

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    Thank you very much for the clarification. I always thought that the allocation percentages were only relative to the single DOF.
    Unfortunately, for months I'm constantly work out of my home and I have not been able to work on the project, but I'm going to deserve your support !!!
    Thanks again!!! :thumbs
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  19. mauricioss9

    mauricioss9 New Member

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    Maybe we could have a dedicated area with Tuning Centre Values and Axis Settings for specific rigs and games for newcomers. I see that other members have already mentioned this idea, so maybe I am just not finding and there is already a dedicated area.

    Here are a couple of pics of my rig. I still need to do a lot of tweaking.

    Rig 1.jpg

    Rig 2.jpg
  20. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    We have a setup and tuning section in the FAQs: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/simtools-settings-tips-and-tricks.18/category

    Including steps to create and refine a motion profile, which for DIY rigs is a far better way to go to get the best out of a simulator, as they vary so much in terms of design and hardware used: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/simtools-settings-tips-and-tricks.18/category
  21. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Hi Yobuddy,

    This is an old thread, but I still hope to get some clarification here.

    So, clipping will occur only when axis reaches its full travel, or no? Is it a good test to watch Axis in Output Testing while game is sending data? If I understand correctly, clipping starts if any of the sliders on axis reaches leftmost or rightmost position?

    Also, if there's Axis Limit set, is it even possible for axis to reach 100% during Output Testing?

    BTW, nice to see someone from the NW working on SimTools :) really nice software, works very smooth! Cheers.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018