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Question [Newbie] Starting my rig

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by Mike Melga, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    Hi everyone.

    I've been wanting to build a rig for a couple of years. Never quite had the time or will to go for it but last week I went for a ride
    on a professional racing sim and I was blown away. It was a Simucube system (don't know exactly which) with a DD wheel.

    I am not trying to build something like that, because I lack the skills and money for that but I would like to build a budget/almost decent
    2dof simulator.

    I have spent some time reading several posts and topics here and I guess I have a very basic idea of what I want.

    I want a seat mover.
    I already have a T500RS wheel.
    I will buy the seat, pedals, shifter, motors and everything else needed.
    I am thinking of buying the Thrustmaster's TH8A + T3PA Pro pack (~260€) for pedals and shifter which seem to be a good entry level set.


    My request for help concerns:

    1 - The seat: I am looking for a 'not very' professional seat because I am planning of making the rig my 'game station'. I will play there not only racing sims but pretty much everything.
    So I need a racing style seat which is comfortable at the same time. Any ideas?

    2 - The overall project: I am trying to build the shortest (in height) rig possible. I don't like those rigs with high seats. So I guess the motors will have to be behind (and not under) the seat, right?

    3 - I need help in choosing the motors. I've found here a post with several motor recommendations but many of the links (specially ebay ones) are dead. I am from Europe so I would prefer local dealers.
    I have just over 90kg (almost round) body so I guess I'll need somewhat powerfull motors.

    4 - Is it possible to add traction loss to a seat mover?



    I am thinking on using arduinos and I have several HP server PSU which I saw here somewhere that could be used.


    Any tips to get me started?


    Thanks!


    Regards
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Doing some research before getting in too deep is time well spent.

    You will find plenty of helpful information in the FAQs, in particular check out the SimTools, fundamentals of motion and the design sections, plus the Arduino section for the required code: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/

    You can go through existing member projects for specific ideas or inspiration: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/forums/diy-motion-simulator-projects.22/

    Or search for specific types of projects using the Google Custom Search function on the Recent page: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/find-new/posts?recent=1

    If something sounds odd then look it up in the glossary: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/glossary-of-acronyms-and-names.66/

    There are both race seats and race styled office seats that are comfortable, but cost and personal preference play a significant role in the choices people make. As a start what is your budget for a seat?

    A shoulder mount design can have a pretty low mount point, but it still needs to be ergonomically sound and allow the full range of desired movement.

    Work out what motors you need for a given design and then go shopping locally, SimCalc can help you get your head around design Vs physics trade offs: https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...e-linear-speed-and-forces-of-your-design.270/

    Yes you can combine a seat mover design with traction loss, again see the FAQ TL section to start with, along with doing a Google Custom Search: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/traction-loss.174/
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Halloween2go

    Halloween2go Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi Mike, I can concur with the shoulder mount. I used 50:1 crab pot motors off ebay and arduino and 3 IBT-2 controllers. I built a full motion frame and it really kicks, but it would be faster if it was a seat mover. I ended up buying a seat off of amazon : just type in 'amazon sim seat' in google.. I bought the blue one. Take a look at my build if you get a chance. I ended up buying 3 of those crab pot motors so I could get Pitch, Roll, Surge, Brake and Traction loss. It took a couple months to build it but it's so fun it's worth the effort.
    The seat is pretty heavy, but I weigh 210 pounds and it fits me pretty good for a couple hours or so.
    Here is a small photo blue racing seat.JPG
  5. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    Thanks both for your answers.


    I will use SimCalc to see which kind of motor I need, as soon as I start the building and know the exact dimensions. Thanks.

    Halloween2go: nice build! I am sure I'll steal some ideas from you :)

    Your seat seems nice. I've found on Amazon some others that seem fine also but I still can't post external links :)

    I spent the last few days reading as much as I could from posts here and this is what I know (correct me if I am wrong) I will need:

    - 2 (3 if I add TL) worm drive motors (exact power and specs only after seat build). There is a 'building resources' section here that has a DC Motors shopping list. Unfortunately, most of the links are dead. The ones I needed most (european links) are all dead. Any chance of updating that list?

    - 1 Arduino Uno R3 (can it be a clone?)

    - 2 or 3 Moto monsters

    - 2 or 3 Hall sensors

    - 2 or 3 Server PSU

    - 1 U-joint


    Is this ok?

    From what I read I also want an irreversible motor. Those stay flat when powered off, right?

    Any advice on a good, not very tall u-joint?

    Thanks again!
  6. Halloween2go

    Halloween2go Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    The 50:1 motors i have do not stay put when there is no power. I have to tilt the rig forwards, which is easy to do but i think if you get motors with a higher gear ratio, the may stay put without power
  7. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    My 60:1s can't be back driven unpowered.
  8. Halloween2go

    Halloween2go Member Gold Contributor

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    Noorbeast, Yeah, you probably have those motion dynamics motors. The shipping was really high to USA, so I went with those crab pots puller motors. I think when I start ordering parts for my 6DOF i will have to go with something like that. Maybe Mike can get better shipping costs to his country.
    Mike, I did buy a TH8A stand alone shifter and am pretty happy with it. I saw you mentioned wanting to get one in your thread here and I like mine. But I have not tried any others
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  9. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    Ok...bought a seat and will order the TH8A shifter and pedals.

    I would prefer that the seat were flat when unpowered. What should I look for in a motor for that to happen?

    I also can't buy those motion dynamics motor. The shipping is very high and I would have to pay taxes on top of the whole value. So... I need to shop here in Europe. Any advices?

    I saw a comercial motion platform that had the motor UNDER the seat (see image). To acomplish that I suppose you have to use much stronger motors, right? I really liked not having those shoulder bars behind the seat.

    Attached Files:

  10. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    The layout you want is a compact design, which require plenty of torque, do a search of existing member projects, here is mine and I use 200w motors with 60:1s and they cant be back driven when not powered: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/dx-compact-simulator.5866/

    Now you have an idea of motor specs for a chosen design you can start to search locally, it is likely wheelchair motors would suit, which also gives a second hand option.
  11. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    noorbeast,

    Your rig looks cool :)

    I guess I do want a compact design but my fear is getting motors that are not powerful enough to drive my 90kg+seat. Would yours be enough?
    I emailed motiondynamics for a shipping quote. Let's see if it is reasonable or not.

    What specs should I look in a motor? Torque 20nm or more? Wattage? Rpm?
    • Like Like x 1
  12. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I am using the 200W motors with 60:1 gearboxes on my compact rig.

    Wheelchair motors would be another option, even second hand ones.
  13. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    I'm afraid they're not easy to find around here. It is a very specific use and prices are extremely high.
  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    The likes of Ebay are likely your best bet if bargain hunting for the best price.
  15. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    hi guys. Thought id add an opinion here.
    I use the pgsaw 50:1 (crab pot) motors from ebay and can confirm that they can be back driven when not powered and they do have a little backlash as all gearmotors have. They cost a little under £100 each for the 3 i purchased with shipping and import tax from Canada to the uk so wasn't cheap. That being said i would order again without question as they are perfect on my rig. I have a seat mover with TL , 3 motormonsters in half bridge mode with separate power supplies for each motor driver (i use cheap 480w 12v led supplies). I can tell you that even with my 105kg it is fast and very sharp and can deal with fast surge under braking even though i have a 120kg load cell brake pedal which you have to push hard to get full brakes against the force of the motors.
    Im a big fan of the motormonster as if you find good ones they will provide loads of power for a fairly small amount of money. They don't have all the regenerative voltages to deal with that more modern drivers have and use large resisters or parallel battery's to deal with them and uses the smc3 software which is a superb bit of arduino coding.
    The universal joint that i use came from a scraped car so was cheap as its part of the car they very rarely sell so is only scrap value to them. It is from the adjustable steering column, it is 40mm in diameter and 80mm tall so my seat sits low to increase stability.
    As @noorbeast mentioned and in my experience sim calc is your friend. Good sim design is more important than just using more powerful motors and drivers. I spent hours on sim calc when i designed my rig and it was time well spent. Getting the right rod angles, lever ctc, degrees of motor angle used and good balance point are a much better way than just brute force and i am sure my rig wouldn't be as good as it is without it.
    hope this helps guys
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  16. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    @yellofella,

    Thanks for your help. Your setup looks great :)
    I see you have a shoulder mount system. Would those crab pot motors be enough for a compact system (below de seat)?
    Do you have a link for those motors?

    Importing from Canada would cost a bit and still would have to pay taxes (30% of total value).
    I find it hard to believe that those kind of motors are not available here in Europe.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2020
  17. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I believe the pgsaw 50:1 crabpot motors have been listed as out of stock for quite some time: https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEAR-MOTOR...5-1-ratio-/351066992384?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

    I found that 50:1s often can't be back driven when brand new, but can after being used for a while, though in my view other than that they are well suited to drive a well designed compact rig.

    Being in Australia I now use Motion Dynamics 200w motors with 60:1s, which can't be back driven and hardly get warm on my upgraded heave assisted 3DOF.
  18. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    hi @Mike Melga
    I found you the link for the 50:1 pgsaw motors that i purchased but as @noorbeast has mentioned already they are out of stock.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEAR-MOTOR...LL-FEED-SIMULATOR-75-80RPM-50-1-/371596157992
    I would contact the seller and ask if he is getting any more of them at some point as he has been an ebay seller for 20 years and the reason that he is out of stock might be a supply problem due to covid19.
    As for the shipping and import taxes i have some info on that for you from when i purchased mine as i still have the box they arrived in.
    The import duty was £3.71
    Parcel force handling fee was £11.25 // delivery fee from uk customs to my address
    The vat was the kicker £44.40
    If you order motion dynamics 60:1 as noorbeast is using then you will have to pay roughly the same fees when they arrive in Portugal as they will be shipped from Australia. There is no getting around this as they wont deliver until payment is cleared at customs.
    As to why you cant get them here in Europe is a mystery to me as I'm sure there is a large market for them here. I can only speculate that they would be to expensive to make here under EU rules and any dealer that imported them for sale would be subject to the same import duty and vat that you would pay to import them yourself so wouldn't be viable once profit was added. On the plus side if you do import them yourself you will be dealing with either of two great nations (Canada or Australia) which when you buy from them you will get exactly what you pay for and wont be copies or clones or mis labelled or over rated specs or shipping two different items only to refuse to pay return postage (think you can guess who I'm referring too).
    If these motors are out of you reach at the moment then i would recommend a visit to a car scrap yard and get 2 wiper motors as i ran my sim for nearly 6 years using them with good results. You will have to ground isolate them but it will get you moving until you have made a decision on what more powerful motors you can source. Driven correctly on a well designed seat mover rig you may be surprised to how much power they can deliver and being second hand they have the added value of being cheap to replace if you destroy one while you are learning to be a pro sim builder. If you wanted the motors under the seat then you could use 2 wiper motors per axis with a motormonster in duel mode with a single feedback pot to double the power and still at a low cost.
    hope this helps
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Halloween2go

    Halloween2go Member Gold Contributor

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    Yeah, I just checked if I could order some of those Crab pot 50:1's and they are indeed ' out of stock' . I guess pre- COVID, I had no trouble ordering the three I needed.
    FYI.. although I am very very happy with the Crab Pots and my shoulder mount solution, if I was in your situation I may just consider going with the Aussy Motion Dynamics 60:1.. You have to wait anyway.. and they are just a 'few hundred more... ".. Probably better with a compact rig or if you decide to go with geared 6DOF.
    I'm definitely not an expert, but I am sure Noorbeast is.. and other on the forum.. Sorry you cant get the crabpots easily, but we're all dealing with this issue in some way or another.. I am trying to order 3 more buttkickers (because it's awesome) but can't until August 20 due to delays.. Sad.. (but not sick) :roll
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    Hi.

    My guess is that pgsaw figured it out that he could sell them better and for more money as motion simulator motors:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEAR-MOTOR...801741?hash=item56cd32200d:g:A0EAAOxyW1NRER~7

    Estimate shipping to Portugal is $100 (just one). Ouch.
    I really need to try to find something over here as this motors would cost me over $325 (incl. taxes) each.

    I am stubborn and I'll only buy them after I have confirmation that there is nothing similar in Europe.

    yellofella,
    Wiper motors are indeed an option but only if no other is available.

    Halloween2go,

    Will any of these replace the buttkickers? Do you have any experience with these types?

    https://www.ebay.de/itm/332310275715
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/322788102794
    https://www.ebay.de/itm/153213316482
  21. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga New Member

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    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020