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DOF Reality / Prosimu T1000 / Next Level V3

Discussion in 'Commercial Simulators and Peripherie' started by Bobpies, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Hi,
    This is really nice thread guys, thanks to all the contributors :)

    I am trying to decide between DOF Reality and ProSimu T1000 for use solely in racing simulation. Due to space constraints I am leaning towards DOF Reality.

    That said, I would appreciate if someone shares:
    * what is the balancing procedure, and is it really that hard to get right?

    * I anticipate that sometimes, I will want to race without motion. Is it possible to use DOF Reality with motion off?

    * I am wondering if it is worth going to P3 from H3. My plan is to use rig for 4-6 hours a week, which is hardly a "commercial use". Any thoughts on this?

    * Anyone knows if DOF Reality does Black Friday sales?

    * Any strong arguments for buying Momo/Sparco/OMP seat vs something like Ricmotech sells?

    * Lastly, even though due to space requirements I am unlikely to go for ProSimu, what is the difference between rotation below the seat (DOF reality) vs a bit in front of it (ProSimu)

    Thanks in advance :)
  2. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    OK, let me give you my thoughts from a DofReality P3 user (can't speak for the T1000)(isnt the T1000 a Terminator?)

    1. Balance. Not difficult but important and somewhat time consuming. By disconnecting the upper portion of the moving frame and sitting in the seat (with a couple of friends supporting you, you can feel where the weight is and adjust accordingly. I suspect if you have Logitech or Thrustmaster wheels and pedals they are light enough that its you the driver that is the most weight so its about moving moving the seat forward and back and side to side. There were some side to side adjustment holes but they didnt line up properly for me so I ended up slotting all the holes in the seat frames giving me more flexibility of adjustment.
    You will know when the rig is balanced because sitting in the seat you will be able to rock easily from side to side. Front to back adjustment is easy if you bought seat runners.

    2. Motion can be quickly and easily turned off through the simulator software. Because of the slop in the wormdrives you will always get a little rocking but you don't notice it. I find I turn off motion quite frequently if I'm hot lapping because motion does tend to slow me down (not that I'm fast with motion turned off but you know what I mean). But with motion turned on you have more immersion. It's never going to be like driving a real car because you are never subjected to G Forces, but hey how often do you get to drive the cars of your dreams on different locations all around the world huh?

    3. I would suggest spend the extra money and get the P3 rig if you can afford it. I have not tried the H3 but I suspect the H3 motors are not going to last as long. However I'm sure there are lots of happy H3 users.

    4. Black Friday Sales? Don't know but I doubt it. I don't think I have ever seen DofReality advertise sales but I guess you just speak to Igor at DofReality

    5. Seat is a personal choice but I just bought a cheap aftermarket small as possible car seat. Proper racing seats are there to hold you in place against the G Forces. You wont be subjected to any real g forces so there is little point buying an expensive seat. What is important is how the seat attaches to the frame. You need a seat that has 4 mounting holes, one at each corner. As I said earlier you are going to need seat runners to help you adjust forward to back balance. I would also suggest a seat that can recline because this provides further forward to back adjustment for balance.

    6. The biggest difference I see between the two rigs (taking the size out of consideration) is the DofReality motors vs the ProSimu actuators. This is where the biggest cost difference is (or was, I think the proce of the DofReality has gone up a lot and I suspect the price difference between the two is now less). ProSimu uses actuators while DofReality uses motors. I have not tried using a rig with actuators (did try a DBox system which uses simular actuators I suspect) but the linier actuators will have a lot less slop in the drive mechanism. I have just compared prices and the DofReality P3 is $2500 and the ProSimu T1000 is $3500 (pitch roll and traction loss). That is still quite a big difference in price. That $1000 difference can buy you extra sim gear but not a lot of extra sim gear.

    What you have not considered:

    Where you are. DofReality is shipped out of the Ukrain, ProSimu is out of France (I think). Shipping cost may be an issue.

    Customer Service. Can't speak for ProSimu but even though I have had quite a few issues with my rig (weld failures being the latest problem), DofReality have actually been pretty good at customer service. It helps a lot if you are having issues and you need somebody to turn to. Saying that there is quite a big DofReality community to help with any problems.


    If you do go down the DofReality route, do expect to spend some time setting up. The DofReality rig is not plug n play but I guess none of the rigs are. I have had problems with my rig failing. I've had the traction loss rollers fail, I've had one of the motor driver boards fail and most recently I've had the main backbone weld fail. Al lthese have ment me having to fix myself. It's not DofReality have not been helpful but I found it easier to get the repairs done myself. I've had my rig for about a year and I'm told DofReality have changed the rig since I bought mine but I have heard of a number of instances where the traction loss rollers have failed and I have heard of at least one other issue with weld failures. Dofreality has offered to ship a new frame to replace the one that has broken which is good however I'm not sure if it's worth the effort. But I'm lucky, I have a friend who knows a welder.

    But I say again, $1000 difference goes a long way to fixing the issues.

    Hope this helps

    Andy
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  3. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Andy, I am sure I'll have more questions, but right off the bat I am confused about something:

    Do I understand you correctly, that you say balance is achieved by moving seat backwards or forward (and sideways)? But wouldn't that adjust the distance to pedals? I am planning to buy seat sliders, but I intend to adjust the seat pos to make my feet comfortable with pedals, not to balance.

    I am currently with CSW and CSP, and intend to move to Fanatec DD wheel, probably in 1.5 years. But I am light (I hope :D) 70kg, so I suspect there might be more weight forward than you expected.

    I am also beginning to wonder if I could cut some expenses by mounting my playseat seat instead of buying one, as it is just fine seat.

    Thanks for all the info so far.
    Vytautas
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  4. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    While comfort is an important factor, balance is more important on this rig however there are a couple of things that will allow you to find a comfortable position.

    Firstly there are three positions forthe mounting of the universal joint. So depending on where you moint the main spine in relatin to the universal joint alows some fore and aft position.
    Secondly, you can always re-drill the mountig of the pedals if needed
    Thirdly, if you have a seat that can recline, you can add further fine adjustment of the balance.

    Dont worry you will find a comfortable position but the balance of this rig is vitally important. And side to side balance is, I would suggest even more important and it's harder to achieve that balance. I had to move my seat, wheel and pedals a number of times until I got the balance close. And only last week I removed the second thrustmaster shifter I had fitted and was never using for a handbrake and had to shift my seat position about 20mm just to get the balance right again.

    My friend has the full Fanatec Club Sport setup and he had no real problems getting a balance rig although he did have a bit of a side to side balance issue and his solution was to add a counter balance on the rhs to cater for the shifter and handbrake on the lhs (we are both English so want shifters on the left).

    As for using your playseat, anything will do as long as they will align with the holes in the seat frame. Does the Playseat have seat runners?

    Im at work at the moment but if you want rough dimensions of the mounting holes I can take a look and come back to you. I suspect however the generic seat mounting hole sizes are fairly generic.

    Any other questions dont hesitate to ask. If you end up going for the DofReality and come into any issues Im happy to talk on Discord if you have that. Timezones may be an issue but I have been helping out another DofReality user who is based in the US (but cant remember where and I guess there are a number of timezones in the states as well) and I have been speaking to him, evening for me and morning for him.

    So what sims are you planning to use? Ive had pretty good results with setup for Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2. Dirt Rally makes the rig literally jump around the room so settings have to be really turned down. iRacing is fine as is Automobilista. The only sims I have not really tried with the rig is RFactor 2 and RaceRoom. Just never really got round to trying those.

    Andy
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  5. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Andy,
    I am about to go to bed, it is 10:46PM PST, but I'll get back to you tomorrow. One interesting thing to know, could you PM me your height and weight, if you don't mind of course, that's a bit personal. But it'll help imagine weight distribution differences for me and you. I'll also send you my discord contact on PM.

    Funny thing, my favorite sim is rFactor 2. My second favorite is R3E, and then iRacing. I am pretty confident rF2 will provide all the data motion needs to do its best, not so sure about R3E. Funny, cause that's two games you didn't get to try :)

    Last quick thing, actuators vs motors, what's the difference?

    Talk later,
    Vytautas
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  6. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    I will measure myself weight and height and get back to you but not tall and a little overweight (but only a little, lets say stocky) is a reasonable description.

    There are the appropriate plugins for all the major sims so don 't worry about whether you have or have not got motion, it's more likely about how good the motion is. I guess I need to reinstall R3E and give it a try.

    Actuators vs motors? Its all about the cost. I spoke to DofReality about replacing the motors with linier actuators and was shocked at the cost. Cant remember exactly but it was in the region of another couple of thousand dollars. The P3 motors in my opinion are the better option but couldnt give specific differences. Email DofReality and ask them. They should give you the info you would like.

    So while the actuators are probably better, I really don't know if its worth the extra expense. Most people who are building their own systems tend to go with truck windscreen wiper motors and dont seem to have problems but for me, the P3 motors just said 'a bit more substantial.'

    The P3 motor speeds are more that adequate to throw me around in Dirt Rally.

    Andy
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  7. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Andy,

    Thanks for all the clarifications. I think I am starting to get an idea of what to expect. I was mostly worried about seat position relative to pedals, so that feet are comfortable (I am into longer races), but it sounds like the biggest challenge is getting sideways balance right. I wonder if instead re-drilling, re-positioning items, I could come up with some extension thingy on a left, to put weights in it to counterweight imbalance caused by non perfect alignment and CSS shifter, which is pretty heavy.

    Were you able to attach keyboard to the DofReality somehow? I'll probably get one of those TV keyboards with a touchpad, but wondering how to attach it.

    After playing with all of this in my mind, I realized that I actually can make space for T1000 3 motion rig. However, it is quite a bit more expensive than DofReality H3 shipped, even with French VAT excluded (I haven't even checked yet how much ProSimu will charge to ship to the US). So, I need a really good technical reason to consider spending that much more money.

    Good idea about reclining seat. I was considering getting one without recline mechanism, due to additional weight of it.

    Regarding Playseat, I am thinking I might be better off selling it. I am happy with the seat itself, but if I removed it will leave useless parts. Although my Playseat is quite mutilated by all the enforcements I did to it (mostly tape and screws everywhere), so not sure how successful my sale would be. I've no sliders, but they're available to purchase from Playseat.

    Actuators - yesterday watched video on D-Box stuff, it is outstanding. But I think spending $15k is a bit too much, you can actually get a nice used sporty car for this amount. So, maybe if I'll get richer down the road in my life, for now it is too much. And truck wiper motors - man, who knew they are so powerful? Does anyone sell kits with controller and motors, like D-Box, based on wiper motors of course?

    BTW, R3E likely won't need plugin at all, as it always writes telemetry out into shared memory block.

    Vytautas
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  8. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    I use a Logitech wireless keyboard wth trackpad and a smaller digital button box held on flexible tablet mounts.

    See the attached immages

    thumbnail.jpg thumbnail2.jpg thumbnail3.jpg

    Keyboard holder is on spring clips so I can just grab the keyboard when I need it. Cant have the things too flexible however because when the rig starts moving, the keyboard and tablet rattle about because they are both mounted to the moving part of the rig.

    You are thinking about adding counterbalance weights which is a good idea in principle but its just more weight for the motors to move. Works out fine for my friend but I wanted to mimimise the weight as much as possible. My ECCI wheel and HPP pedals are pretty heavy, a lot heavier than Fanatec gear.

    Technical reason for ProSimu? It will be better and less play in the actuators/motors. If I had the money I would go for a ProSimu, but Im pretty happy with the rig I have. I just ran 30 2:36 min laps of Assetrto Corsa Highlands with the motion kicking my arse and Im fine with the rig. Its powerful enough for me not wanting to crash because its all pretty violent.

    As for plugins, if you go down the SimTools route (which you will if you have the DofReality Rig) then each simulator needs an appropriate plugin. DofReality supply you with a licence for the first fw weeks or months and that allows you to download the plugins at the start. However as time goes on, plugins are updated and if you want to download, you have to have 250 coins which gives you 1 weeks access to download plugins. Which its good to be active on this forum.
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  9. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Thanks for sharing keyboard mounting pictures. I was thinking of very similar keyboard, just concerned if I will be able to do things without wrist support to keep my hand steady (I am affected by condition that leads to poor motor skills, it helps to have support when doing something precise. That's one of the reasons I am looking for ready solution instead of building my own, as soldering and fine cutting is out of question), but we will see, this all looks very promising.

    I will continue my research, as in any case I do plan to do actual purchase in September this year. One thing that strikes me when I watch ProSimu video, it looks like at least with cheaper actuator option (Dyna something), it appears that ProSimu has smaller range of motion compared to DOF Reality. Sure, I am planning to use small ranges/forces anyway, but it is still a bit concerning. Maybe this is false impression.

    I am also beginning to wonder if I can go ProSimu route by starting with 3 actuator setup (last one for traction loss) and then buy two more down the road, to have 4 actuator setup in corners, and one for traction loss. That will provide with suspension simulation, although if my geometry doesn't fail me, this will restrict range of motion anymore.

    Regarding plugins - what if I don't have points, can I buy plugin update if needed?

    Andy, thanks for all the info provided so far ;)
    Vytautas
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  10. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Sorry for the double post, but this forum has edit restrictions.

    Andy, I've one favor to ask: could you measure your P3 at the widest point and tell me the width?

    Also, one more question related to balance. So, when motors are on, but there are no forces coming from the game, do engines do the work to keep seat from moving, or is it freely wiggling? I am trying to understand if engines are doing any work to compensate center of mass offset.

    Lastly, if I set forces to small values, does the range of motion gets smaller or just the speed changes? I'd like to make sure I'll be able to reduce range of motion if I'd like to. Thanks!

    Vytautas
  11. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    Vytas,

    Dont worry too much about range of motion. You actually dont want a huge rage of motion because that starts to feel a bit cartoonish. You really dont need a lot of motion for you brain to be fooled and you start to get the elevel of immersion. What you need is 'high fidelity'. If what you feel is not aligned with what you see, you can start to get motion sickness. So in fact smaller more defined movement is better.
    You can do this through the setup of SimTools. If I understand correctly, SimTools puts out a force, lets say. If you have a wide range of motion, that force is used across the whole of the motion so it all happens a little slower. If you restrict the range of motion, the firce is more intense across that smaller range.
    If you ever try a sim rig, the owner always put the motion up to max for huge effect and the wow factor but for normal use of the motion rig, you really dont want a lot of motion at all.

    As for plugins, yes you can pay for a monthly or yearly subscription I think, but as I said, if you were to go down the DofReality route, you would have that access to begin with. Then just find some nuby who has lots of questions and the coins come flooding in hug:

    I will measure the width this evening and get back to you but I think the widest point for me is the seat. The rig itself is vey narrow. Oh wait, the outer edges of the traction loss frame may be a little wider. I'll measure up and get back to you.

    I think the ProSimu's ability to upgrade is a +ve thing, assuming ProSimu dont go out of business before you get round to upgrading. As far as I can tell, you cant upgrade the DofReality rig. But then again, it's down to cost isn't it. I think I said before, if I knew then what I know now I think I still would have gone for the DofReality 9even with its problems), I just cant justify that sort of money for a toy. $3500 is a lot of money. I suspect the ProSimu is a better system, but $1000 better? Im not sure.

    Because of the stepdown gearing if the motors, you cannot manually move the output shafts from the gear boxes at all so there is no movement other than the slop in the wormdrives. Ther is probably a couple of degrees free play at the gearbox output shaft but other than that, the seat stays where you left it.

    Andy
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  12. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Thanks Andy. Research continues, and I realized that I won't be able to upgrade ProSimu unless I go expensive actuator route - and then price quickly approaches d-box kind of costs, so that's not a pro. I also read that motors in DOF Reality are faster spec, meaning finer details conveyed, probably. Lastly - SCN6 are apparently loud. That might a problem, especially with my wife :D

    So you are saying, that DOF Reality won't wiggle around side to side if I set fine little forces? That is good to hear. Does the rig eventually loses center, or stays nearly centered?

    Cheers!

    Vytautas
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  13. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    The DofReality rig isn't quiet but its more just mechanical nose for stuff moving around, clunking and banging. I have heard that the lineir actuators are quite noisy.

    As for unintended movement, the rig will stay exactly where it is unt il it is asked to move. There is no slow creep due to gravity lets say. I cant say definitivily that it doesn't, but I have never come back to the rig after a week to find itdrooping over to one side or the other. Because if the worm drive I don't thin the motors could be back driven. Its the nature of the wormdrive. But I wouldnt say there is no unintended motion. Because there is a level of slop in the wormdrives I would say there is about 1 or 2 degrees of free rotation. That equates to maybe a cm (possibly less) of slack from one extre to the other of free movement. If you sit in the rig and rock from side to side or front to back you get a little bit of movement. But its not excessive. If I turn motion off, I'm not swaying all over the place, its just a bit of free play in the mechanisms.
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  14. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    More coins your way Andy :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=583&v=dfUmvDlelJ4
    In this video, beginning with 9:36 person describes very fine details, like feeling the pavement type etc. Can those details be felt with DOF Reality?

    One of the concerns with T1000, looking here it seems that it barely moves, whereas DOF Reality has a lot of range reserve, especially for traction loss/YAW simulation. As a DOF Reality user, how does this range of motion looks to you, is it really restricted in this video or it is just an illusion?

    I wish I could imagine how loud actuators are. I will be using rig in a basement. Floor noise doesn't matter, it is vinyl over concrete slab. But where I live most houses are built cheaply, made of drywall pretty much. Concern will be if my folks on a second floor will constantly hear actuator noises while I am practicing. There will be door closed, but still very thin and light door.

    Thanks for all your help :)
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    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  15. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  16. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    About 34 inches at the widest point.
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  17. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

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    OK, I've watched a couple of ProSimu videos and there is considerably more motion with the DofReality rig. But the question is "Is more better?"

    I think if you were going to use VR then I would say go with the ProSimu. While I have to admit I have not used VR and motion at the same time I do think that if you were immered in a VR helmet I don't think you need a lot of motion to make your brain think you are in that car.

    If however you are viewing a display in front of you, be it 1 or 3 screens or in my case projected onto a screen in front of me, then I think you need more motion. With my projected image, that image almost fills my entire view so I would say I'm more immersed than somebody with a single or multiple displays. I guess setting the correct FOV also helps that immersion more. But I digress.

    I still think if you can afford the ProSimu, I would go with that.

    1. You have the oportunity to add more actuators as you go. But for sim racing you really need a minimum of three, pitch roll and traction loss.
    2. I think everybody will eventually go down the VR route and I think longer term the ProSimu may be more future proof.
    3. While the DofReality is a great peice of kit, I do think it's a little fragile.
    4. If you are constrained by space then the DofReality is the way to go. The ProSimu as a 2DoF rig is slightly wider than the DofReality, for 3, 4 or 5 DoF, that ProSimu is going to get a pretty big footprint.
    5. While I dont have sound meters, I would say the DofReality is quieter than the actuators of the ProSimu. But the DofReality isn't quiet, it does seem quieter than the ProSimu rig.
    6. The DofReality rig does have a bit of a habit of moving aroud the room. Im exagerating but after a few crashes in Assetto Corsa my rig had moved about 20cm across the room (polished wood floor). Again, is space is limited it could be a nissue but I guess it wouldnt take much to stop the movement. Griptape or something. I cant because Im in rented accomodation.
    7. I still think $1000 is a lot of saving but that could be lost in the shipping costs. I was lucky to fool Malaysian customs and with a fake invoice for a very cheap peice of Sunami test equipment ( had the lowest import duty) We paid very little customs duty on our two rigs.
    8. As far as I can tell you get no sim software with the ProSimu (but I could be wrong) so you are going to have to get SimTools which you do get free with the DofReality. It's not a lot of money but if you don't know how to set this sort of stuff up (and now knowing what you do, I suspect that wont be an issue) then that could make life a little more difficult.
    9. I dont like the wheel mount on the ProSimu. While it may not be an issue for people who are used to driving on the left, as an englishman, I want the shifter on my left and to get out of my rig on the right and the ProSimu wouldnt work for me

    Anyway, thats my thoughts.

    Andy
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  18. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Andy,
    Thanks for such a detailed response. It is really helpful.

    One correction regarding adding more actuators to ProSimu - there's caveat. You need to buy ProSimu actuators, and they are next level of expense. I wish ProSimu allowed 5 Dyadic actuator combinations, with limit of say, 150kg full weight. 4 actuators in corners allow simulating suspension better. So, addition of new actuators is a pro, but with a caveat :)

    If I'll go ProSimu way, I'll always miss painful crashes DOF Reality can simulate :) I really like all the details in simulation that makes you _not want to crash_.

    I have to agree, that fragility is one of the biggest concerns with DOF Reality.

    BTW, one thing that amazed me from ProSimu video, person was able to understand track surface. Are fine details of track surface felt with DOF Reality?

    Have a good weekend,
    Vytautas
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    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  19. Andy Booth

    Andy Booth Active Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Balance:
    375Coins
    Ratings:
    +55 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF
    If I can give you an example,

    I purchased a paid Assetto Corsa Mod for a number of 1980 and 1990 F1 cars. I set up the motion with very little movement but that movement being very harsh as I expected an F1 car would feel like.
    Anyway, with that car out on the track there really was very little pitch and roll but along the start finish straight of Mugello your teeth rattle because that track is really quite rough.

    It's all down to setup. I also tried setting up lots of movement on a 4x4 suv. Don't really feel the bumps in the road but roll in and out of corners.

    I guess what I'm saying is, there is enough setup flexibility to make it feel how you want it to feel.

    I am considering fitting tactile transducers (butt kickers or similar) to get even more fine feel but it is ok as it is to be honest.

    Andy
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  20. Onaflyer

    Onaflyer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Boston, USA
    Balance:
    246Coins
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, SCN6
    I have been following this thread to a while and I ended up going with the T1000. It should arrive tomorrow but it will be a week before I can get it set up.

    I plan on building some insulated boxes to lessen the noise. I will update when I have it up and running!
    • Like Like x 2