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Question Does anyone tried (or is trying) to build a 360° simulator

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by Oms, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    Hello all, here after example:
    simulator 360°.jpg
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    Ads Master

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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    360° simulators are often discussed but only rarely built, because of the complexity/cost Vs the limited benefit compared to other motion simulator options.

    While a 360° simulator can obviously roll and pitch through 360° it can't really generate the associated G-forces, though a robotic arm 360° simulator has more scope than a hamster style 360° simulator. The biggest benefit I can see is sustained inverted flight simulation.
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  4. hooshang

    hooshang Active Member

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    IMO first you should have a code has no limitation at least in two directions, i donno maybe someone can modify for example SMC3 for the purpose.
  5. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    Hello hooshang & noorbeast,

    Concerning code limitation, I think it is not really a problem for me as I am writing my own code (I can share of course if somebody is interesting) as you can see on video of my first (and still current...) 3 dof motion simulator that run perfectly: of post “Lauching finally a 3DOF (seat mover) instead 6DOF low cost dynamic simulator” (with example of race game Rfactor Special Edition 2008, cf our previous discussion dear australian guy ;))

    I thought a while to build 6 dof platform (cf post "My Princess) but gave up because the step is finally too short in my opinion (I tried one, and feeling is just a little bit better than in 3dof). An when you try figther aircraft game, what frustation to be so limited ...

    Next simulator, if I lanch it, would be:
    4dof seat mover (seat + steering wheel/aircraft stick + screen or VR helmet) with fast surge/sway/heave with arround 10cm amplitude (no need more), and rapid yaw (do not still know angle, around +/-20 or 30°, and axis in front of the seat (so mix between yaw and traction lost), all that installed in a 2dof 360° "hamster style"...

    (Nota: with such simulator, you can reach 1 continuous G of acceleration in surge and sway direction !!)

    ut all that is at dream stage so far (not question of complexity or cost, but mainly a question of time...)

    See you
  6. gzresident

    gzresident New Member

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    There is many this kind fight sim in China,one axis 360 degree anther axis 45 degree. new cost 8K us$ = 55K chinese RMB, second hand maybe very low cost.
    637026080116315733.jpg
  7. KydDynoMyte

    KydDynoMyte Fool's Gold Contributor

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    That "hamster ball" design is the same thing Yaw VR does except scaled down. There is only half a ball on top so you can only do 360° of yaw. It's a pretty simple design. One of the lowest cost prebuilt ones you can buy. Very smart how it works and makes things way easier than any other motion chair I have seen, just no one is used to doing it that way. Maybe a g-seat could get you some of those missing translation forces in a similar design.
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    On the flip side a hamster ball is not very efficient in terms of motion sim design, putting plenty of strain on the motors, nor necessarily precise, and with respect to motion a 360° axis of yaw is only really genuinely realistic when used with a helicopter, and to a lesser extent aircraft, it is not a true traction loss axis with the likes of a car.
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  9. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    Thanks gzresident&kydynomyte&noorbeast for your advices & examples.
    Where I live (south of France), impossible to find this kind of material (and so more than impossible to second hand one...).
    I think I will probably raise the challenge with a new project I could name "ultimate 6dof 360° pitch&roll". I have some ideas for the compact embedded 4dof part of the motion simulator base on a special quadripode (for relatively low amplitude surge - heave - yaw/traction lost and pseudo sway). I think 4 motors around 200W (ex: continuous 24 or 36Vdc) are enough for this first part. For the 2 last axis, it will not the same ... 2 motors around 1.5kw are I think the minimum (Three-phase motors).
    Full agree with you noorbeast concerning "hamster ball", I see also more drawbacks than advantages (beginning by complexity of manufacturing).
    Coming explanations on this potential future project, but do not be in a hurry...
    See you
  10. sam poole

    sam poole Active Member

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    if you have a spare 19m dollars you could go for one of these
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  11. Sam Neall

    Sam Neall Member

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    T
    The only issue I see is the wires twisting when the sim passes one rotation. But like noorbeast said, there is not too much advantage anyways.
  12. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    No issue with wires, thanks to slip rigs.
    I am ok on it is complex to build, a simple 2DOF (pitch&roll) 360° has no enough interest, and that 360° of yaw is only susefull for helicopter, BUT could you explain me why a "360° pitch & roll, associated with embedded limited heave/sway/surge/yaw" would not be the top of simulators ? It could generate much more G-forces than other motion simulator options.
    If you are skilled in washout algorithms, you know that for exemple surge acceleration is simulated using 2 movements -> surge for a short time (limited by the size of your simulator and of your room, with a washout when amplitude max is reached and that arrive very very rapidly...) associated to a slow pitch rotation (slow because your ear could fell that if too rapid) that will allow from a certain angle to feel an CONSTANT acceleration (until 1G if the angle reaches 90°). As horizon stays in front of your eyes, your brain is completely deluded... It is impossible to reach +/-90° (so 1G 0 to 100km/h in 2,8s ouah !!) but more arround 25° (so sin 25 = 0,42G, 0 to 100km/h in 6,8s) with platform and linear actuators.
    After that, flying an aircraft with such 360 simulator must be largely more realistic than with platform, in particular of course in sustained inverted flight, but not only...
  13. Sam Neall

    Sam Neall Member

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    I’ve never heard of slip rigs. Yes, a 360° pitch/roll axis with a platform below it for the rest of the DOFs would accomplish what you are saying. They have found better ways to do this however with robotic arms that can move anywhere in 3-D space that are a lot simpler to engineer. If you are doing it DIY, though, your only choice would be to use the first method considering how expensive it is to make a full sized robotic arm and the amount of space it would take up.
  14. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    Ok I understand the best one is based on robotic arm. But my room space (basement of my house), my DIY capabilities (with machine tools limited to simple drill, grinder, & welding electric machine), and cost I would like not to exceed, all that do not allow me to launch such a simulator.
    So only 1 solution if I want 360° roll&pitch angles additioned to 4 others limited axis, is, I continue to believe, my first proposal solution.
    But before launching this kind of project (time consumer and money), I would like to be sure not to be disillusioned at the end...
    So it is for that I oppened this post, waiting for your relevant comments.
    If I have doubts, I give up...
    Thank you a lot for your comments

    by the way, slip rigs:
    slip rigs.jpg
  15. PeterW

    PeterW alias Wickie

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    Hi Oms,
    I cant give you a cheap solution, but I can give you an friendly advice after using my own 6DOF sim for some months. You have to take care, that the movements you get from the sim matches exactly to that what you see - I can only talk about VR here). Otherwise you will get motion sick verry fast and wont use your sim often.
    Also it feels strange to try to get the illusion of horizontal acceleration by adding a strong vertical position in your sim. Your body will notice this.
    So what I want to say is, I cant recommend a simple and too much arcade style sim. Try to get access to different running sims an find out what works for you.
    Wickie
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  16. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    thank you Wickie, I totally agree on the sickness will rapidly appear if information from your eyes is in contradiction with what ear sensors are feeling.
    But be sure your brain and your ear sensor are not able to know your static position in space, their just fell forces, and with eyes try to understand what is this force. So if you are at 60° for example, without moving, G forces is splitted into 2 forces by your brain helped by yours eyes (for example with your car which is horizontal) -> 1 forces is your weight (a little bit reduce, at cos 60 = 0,5G so weight divided by 2 like than after an very very effective diet :) ), and the other is necessarily for your brain surge acceleration of your car (sin 60° = 0.87G) . Nothing is abnormal so no risq of sickness).
    But before being at 60°, coming from 0°, you have a movement: angle rotation speed must absolutly be under a value otherwise your ear sensors will detect that (you have 2 kinds of sensors, for rotation and for linear forces, you can read for example https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00364838/document) and sickness risk ....
    The fact that your "weight" has reduced not be really well felt by your brain, and is not high source of sickness.
    After that, real pitch is added (but if your eyes see this pitch in the screen, so nothing abnormal and no more sickness).
    Lets read literatures (there are a lot of studies) on washout algorithms with tilt coordination, to better understand that:

    tilt coord..png
  17. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    I totally agree with @PeterW's statements reagrding the need for accurately matching movements.

    And how do you plan to realize your "limited heave/sway/surge/yaw"? Do you intent to mount your 360° rotating rig on top of a platform that does real-time translational movements (with washout) in all three directions? That seems mechanically quite challenging, as well as the correct coordination of the slow rotational movements with the fast translational ones.
    Besides the translational movements will change their meaning while the seat rotates. For example, 'surge' with the seat in normal position will turn into 'heave' when the seat is pitched by 90°.

    On the other hand, the only way to find out if this solution works for you and your brain will be to try it.
    As you will see when looking at some of the DIY threads in this forum, some of the members are chasing the perfect illusion of G forces for years and are still not at the end of their journey.
  18. Sam Neall

    Sam Neall Member

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    Those slip rigs are really cool. I’ve always wondered how it would work getting connections to a rotating object. I think you just need to gauge how much space you have and find out if your tools and materials are up for the job. This would be a pretty big structure that would take a lot of fabrication and welding and I’m not sure if you would be able to do all of that efficiently with the tools you have. If you are able to build the machine, I don’t see any inherent problems with the design you are talking about. Theoretically it will work as you intend. However, all of this is assuming that you are able to build and pay for the machine in the first place.


    Here is a compact design that could be a model for your use but looks expensive.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  19. Oms

    Oms known as "Doc6dof"

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    Hello all,
    some answers/opinions:
    Firstly I will definitively never build 360° pitch & roll alone (or hamster ball) without adding what I am called "limited heave/sway/surge/yaw": because dynamic G-force are forming very important also to feel bumps, tremors, rapid acceleration in all directions, ...
    Secondly how I imagine that : I will not mount a 360° rotating rig on top of a platform, it is monstrous !!! No I think to integrate this 4dof sub-assembly inside the the primary rotaring rig. But I do not still what will be principle (mini 6dof stewart platform, or others...)
    Thirdly, mechanical is much more complex than the code to take into account axis transformations when 360° rotaring rig is in movement, it is calculations in software I am largely able to do (I am not so sure for mechanical aspects...)
  20. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    Hey :)

    Quite an ambitious goal, to add translations to a 360° gimbal system. @apointner built a 360° sim and for what it was designed to do (roll and pitch) it works pretty well! AFAIK he is also considering adding some translations through in-seat actuators.

    The math of a 360° rig (even with translations) is managable, if you have done some programming before. Whether or not it will actually "feel right" to be flying on such a rig is a different question though. It sure is a thrillride :)

    Cheers,... :)
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  21. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

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    No heave ??