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DIY 2DOF with Traction Loss to come.

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by p00ky, May 7, 2020.

?

How foolish am I?

  1. Very

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  2. Beyond measure.

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  1. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Hey there, I'm still semi planning out what I'm doing but have already invested enough money to start worrying :D So I thought I would post and see what anybody and everybody has to say about my rushed decisions, as "they" say.... "If you want to find out how wrong you are, post it on the internet.

    Where I began.........

    I've had a couple of very old Wheel Chair Motors on a shelf for many years now begging to be put to good use. Given all the free time I have right now I thought I'd finally put them to task. So I rushed to the PC and started spending money. Not vasts amount but it started to add up & I thought I best check out the motors. I got them off the shelf and after a quick inspection I realized I had made an error.

    Here are the motors (well one of them, the other is in pieces and not fixable).
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I have the gear boxes too but they are being cleaned up right now. Anyways, it turned out that 10 years ago~ I thought it would be a great idea to swap all the magnets in one of them for neodymium and basically killed it. I think I had got into building wind turbines or something, oh & a pelton wheel. Of course I had forgotten all about that & not really thought about the age of the motors (you can tell they are old because they proudly state "Made in England" on them & thats not been a thing for years) or whether they worked before embarking on my spending spree. So using my brain I rushed back to the computer and spent even more money (but not to much) on a couple more without prior thought or back ground knowledge.

    Here are the new motors.
    [​IMG]
    They are CIM CM808-065's, used in Pride Go & Jazzy wheel chairs. I havent been able to find to much info on them but I've seen similar on a couple of threads here. I'm not sure they are the best or the most powerful but hopefully they will work for the main 2DOF. The intension is to still use the one working old one to add traction loss later on.

    Other things I've bought (without prior thought and proper research), none of which have arrived yet.

    An Arduino UNo R3 to run SMC on (ok I did a little reading).
    3x Double BTS7960 43A H Bridge Drivers (not the best but they were very cheap and do work to some degree, good for testing at the very least).
    Steal Box Section.
    6x Female Rod Ends with rose joint bearings.

    So the basic plan is to do something similar to the DOF Reality H2 with the intention of making it into a H3 with the third motor once I'm happy with what I've achieved .

    A few things Im not quite getting my head around are......

    The Universal Joint for the seat - Ive looked at steering shaft couplings but wonder if they are a bit flimsey & CV joints but I'm no mechanic so never touched one. I'm open to suggestions. Ebay wasn't much help only really offering me socket sets :s

    The Motors & RPM - I've tested the motors on both 12v and 24v (they are all officially 24v) & found that at 12v I got about 80RPM & double that, 160RPM at 24v out of the new ones. I see a lot of people running their motors on 12v but I've always been a little unclear on how that effects the Amps or whether the speed would be a big problem.

    Power Supplies & Surges - The old motor I have is rated at 24v 6.5A, the new motors 24v unknown Amps. I did read that Pride had upgraded their drivers for the jazzy to 40 amps at some point. I assume they had something smaller that would occasionaly blow up before hand. I know the BTS7960's are rated at 43 amps but I saw a few people testing them and saying that they were good for maybe 25-30A and that this was due to the heatsink not being attached to the actual chips but on the opposite side of the board. My real lack of understanding though comes down to surges as I know they can be many time higher than the rated Ampage in stalls or braking & Im not really sure how you go about mitigating such problems or equally, when deciding on power supplies how you factor such things in. Would I really need 3x 24v 40A supplies? If I use 12v, are we still talking 40A? Would a couple of car battaries be cheaper? etc.

    So that's a long enough post with a fair few questions. Any help would be appreciated. I don't need direct answers where & when pointing me to a few sources can help. I am at present working on a bit of cad trying to figure out dimensions etc & will post more when I have something to show or when ordered parts start to come in. I think I've probably got my work cut out for me.

    If your worrying I'm to hasty, it's worth noting that I am very lazy at heart and if I don't but some finacial pressure on myself I will never get the job done. I would litterally never start anything. Equally, braking things is almost as much fun as making them.

    Attached Files:

  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    So a small update... That is that I applied ohms law. I measure 0.4 ohms across the windings, so @24v thats 60 Amps & @12v that's 30 amps(I think) & I'm assuming that's peak. If I can run the motors at 12v then I might use a server psu.
  4. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Another small update as I'm still waiting on everything else to arrive & Im guessing more likely next week.

    I've ordered a couple of HP server PSU's, eash 750watt (12v 63A). This way I can test things on 12v and if I think I need 24v it sounds like you run them in series which is something I've never come across but hey, they were super cheap.
    I also ordered a propshaft universal joint whcih seems pretty beefy so should do the trick & again was pretty cheap.

    Here's a vague Sketchup picture of my plan. It's missing a lot of detail & it's all up for change for now. No point in settling on anything until things start to arrive. One thing of note though is the seat isn't a car seat & is quite small which may throw off the scale. The bed at present is 500mm x 1170mm for reference. I may well get a proper car seat in the future but I've spent enough for now. excuse the floating platforms, the top on is where the wheel would mount the bottom is roughly where the pedals will be. Oh and yes, there will be more base but again, I'll wait until I have some parts in hand to worry about that.
    [​IMG]

    I ran the design through SimCalc and it shows this.......
    [​IMG]
    I've guessed the torque and the RPM is set to 80 which is the speed at 12v. I must admit I don't really know how good or bad the no.s are but I do have clearance as far as that range of movement goes.

    Attached Files:

  5. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Another small update as I wait for partsd to arrive......

    I've recieved a few things which allowed me to get one of the more fiddly jobs out of the way..
    [​IMG]

    2 psu's, some pots, the propshaft and the rose bearing doodads & of course I already received the motors.

    As you may spot I've, some what, experimentaly installed the pots. Their rotation was about 300 degrees so I did a 1:1.6 gear giving me just over 180 degrees of motor rotation to one full turn of the pot. Unfortunatly the pots don't seem to have a locating pin which is rather frustrating but I'm guessing a dab of epoxy glue should be good enough until I inevitably replace them with something else. Here's a closer look ....
    [​IMG]
    The bracket will be mounted where oneside of the motor is bolted to the frame.

    Beyond that, a list of small frustrations.....

    Pots not having a locating pin (already mentioned).
    One of the motors seems to have a bit of slop, it's only a tiny amount but it does leave me to wonder if there isn't larger problems with it.
    The psu's I bought both work but i've failed to find instructions of putting them in series (24v). I thought I had before but it turned out to be different psu's. Not a biggie as I'm intending to at least run the system on 12v for now and if they have to be replaced I'll justy find some with some instructions to series them. They will be generally useful either way.
    The propshaft seems to have flat spots in the central position. Not really sure if this is going to be a problem, it's neglegable when moving it with my hand & when the wait of the frame is on it, it may well be unnoticable altogether. A replacement universal joint will cost more than the prop did though :/
    General delays in orders coming through. The main anoyance being that I need a new welding helmet, I ordered one that should arrive this week but I checked it's due date this morning & now it says it won't arrive for at least another 10 days, so no frame building until then sadly but then again, no steel has arrived yet. Same goes for the UNO R3 that said it would arrive todaybut now it says "maybe thursday" & the motor drivers, the first thing I ordered, due today but nada. Anyways not that interesting but I felt like venting.

    Small changes to sketchup plans.......
    [​IMG]

    Straightened the motors to make the build slightly easier but I might change that back, I'll wait until I start fabrication of the frame and see how I feel at that point. I've added some missing structure to the foot well, generally joining things up. Decided to try and mount my CSL ELITE pedals in the same configeration I have them in now (upsidedown), as I much prefer them that way. Also mount them with out the foot rest albeit I may well use that as a foot rest as I have nothing for that at the moment. Some editional structure will no doubt appear as things progress. Clearly I need more base, especially if I'm going to add traction loss + thew whell mount probably needs some side struts but again, I'll leave that until I'm fabricating. I use a t300rs so not massive amounts of torque but still, probably needs some strengthening (equally, my welding is reasonably untested when it comes to stick, most of my experience has been with a mig which is very easy going).

    That's all I have right now but i'll update as soon as some more things arrive. Time for so Dirt Rally 2 I recon.

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  6. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Another day, another small delivery, so another update.

    Arrivals today.....

    M14 Nuts& Bolts to mount the motors
    The Arduino Uno R3
    A couple of Large Drill Bits (14mm, 19mm) both sub par (but that's what you get from buying them on Ebay)

    Sadly no Drivers, Steel or Welding Helmet but hey ho, no reason to slow.

    Next fiddly Job, the Crank Arms (or what ever you call them). I wasn't sure what I was going to use or how I was going to attach them to the Gearbox Shaft. The Gearbox Shaft is 19mm Diameter making it some what awkward. Equally it didn't come with bolts or Shaft Key & I didn't know if it would weld and I certainly didn't want to try welding it for fear of warpingc & being unable to remove it to fix inevitable issues later. Anyways, a wander round the work shop provided some 5mm steel bar and some 20mm shaft mounts from an old CNC project.
    [​IMG]
    So I made a shim to make up the slack between the shaft and the shaft mount and started drilling holes. I had already decided on 50mm CTC as that seemed a popular choice in some other projects. Putting them together they look a little like this.....
    [​IMG]
    And test mounted on the shaft, a little like this.....
    [​IMG]
    Obviously 1 is not good enough, so rinse and repeat...
    [​IMG]
    Then of course, a change of mind on bolt selection & a couple of extra hole for the shaft ends to pop through and you have this.......
    [​IMG]

    I'm slightly unsure of how well they will clamp the shaft but if all else fails I may try drilling through the clamp and the shaft, adding a pin. Until the drivers turn up and a little more progress is made though I won't be able to properly test, so I'll leave any final decisions until later. With any luck they will just work but if life has taught me anything, it's that the univere is a cruel mistress.

    Attached Files:

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  7. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    So no parts delivered yesterday sadly, spent the day chaseing Ebay Sellers instead :S I've decided to scrap the IBT2's and get a refund as they are already over 10days late. Replacing them will be a Cytron MDDs30c which was a little more exspensive but hey ho, I'm kind of commited to the project now so, mo monies less problems......maybe? With that comes a reminder of some fat wire for all them Amps, a battery to sink the current and surely other things that will spring to mind when I'm trying to sleep at night.
    • Like Like x 2
  8. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    The welders helmet turned up today so I finally got to do a small bit of fabrication & with that I learned how shockingly bad I am at stick welding :D + that the realization of how much work I have to do when my steel order turns up.

    [​IMG]
    Yes! Your correct. That is the cheapest helmet you can buy on Ebay & it's actually not too bad. It doesn't seem to flip up and stay nicely but I've struggled with that before on more exspensive models. But if your in the market & your not a professional, oh, andd your not going to be welding above your head, they aint to bad.

    Now here's the actual work....

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    If I got my camera angles right, it should be quite hard to see how bad the welds are :) I have tested it for strength & it's good, just not pretty. Hows the saying go....

    "A Grinder & Paint, makes a welder what he aint!"

    As you can see I'm recycling some 25mm x 50mm x3 mm box for some of the structure & I might do a bit tomoz but I'm still fiddling with the cad, checking angles and lengths, so we shall see. Im also noticing that I haven't given myself clearance under the crank arm, so a bit of pondering is needed.

    Anyways, time for pizza :p

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  9. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    A grinder will be your new best friend ;)

    Seriously though, thanks for sharing your progress and careful camera work.
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Well thats a bit of luck as the grinder is the only one who isn't social distancing at present :/

    & thank you for the encouragement. I've seen you over there, "Liking" my posts. Such a little sweetie you are :)
    • Like Like x 1
  11. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Another day and a little more fabrication. Today I made the main back bone.

    Firstly I cut out some box from an old project and cut my angles proividing this....

    [​IMG]

    I then marked my angles on the workbench for ease.

    [​IMG]

    Then laid out the pieces on the table and clamp... oh I haven't left enough space for clamping :/ Ah well.

    [​IMG]

    And then we weld......badly! & we end up with this......

    [​IMG]

    And it will technically go something like this.......

    [​IMG]

    The universal joint in the picture has been arbitrarly placed on the end where the seat will be, on the left will be the pedal mount.

    Now it's time for a cup o tea.

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  12. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Steel & the new Motor Driver turned up yesterday so it was all hands to the pump!

    Here's the motor driver......
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The cyton MDDs30c. Blame73 has used the single MDD30's in the past and modified SMC3 to work & you can find out more on his build log here.....

    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/blame73s-2dof-seat-mover.6029/

    Im still waiting on my car battery (due today) and my wires (due tommorow) before I can really tet anything out, although I might mess with some smaller motors I have about later if I get the chance.

    So yesterday was all about the steel and it went a little something like this....

    [​IMG]
    Pieces (but not all) chopped and laid out.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Mostly welded together.

    I got a little further than this but I need to change a few bit's and pieces today so i'll no doubt update a little later.

    Probably a little bit of a silly frame to go with when your not used to stick welding but we got there & the frame is only mildly twisted :D but nothing a big hammer and a grinder cant sort out. :)

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  13. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Today I spent trying to rectify problems I made yesterday (the story of my life). Turned out that in my haste I hadn't noticed a slight twist in the frame. I managed to knock most of that & the little which was left was sorted by offsetting the steeringwheel mounting holes by 10mm. The top half of the frame is completely done and it's just a straight forward base left to do. I've cut out the parts so that should be out of the way pretty quick.

    This evening I spent a little time doing a very simple set up with SMC3 to see how that works & I had one motor moving. I'll leave the tuning until tomoz once the rest has been done.

    [​IMG]

    Attached Files:

  14. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Today it all came together, then it shook itself a part, then a quick rebuild & we were ready for some testing.

    So yes, finally finished the construction but under it's first test it was clear that the shaft mountings were slipping. Slipping so hard infact that it broke the end stop clean off on one pot and ripped apart the second :D The one with out the end stop still worked fine and I managed to rebuild the other ( i do have a couple of spares but that would be a waste).

    I then needed to sort out the shaft mounts so precision ground ;) some to fit and cut a slot for the key in the bracket like so......
    [​IMG]

    And then I had to get my head around simtools. Luckily I found a couple of youtube videos that helped me get over the hump.

    At present the motors arn't tuned and it was a little rough going but I had LFS going although I think the roll was going in the wrong direction. Lfs didn't seem to want to use my t300rs and my fanantec pedals at the same time :( so I just used an old xbox pad lieing around. After a while I found the whole thing got quite shakey even after restarting so I think it's time I rationalized the wiring as I wonder if it came from some dodgy connections. That will be the fun for tommorow.

    Over all it did work which was both quite shocking and rather pleasing. Further tesing is badly needed.

    This is what it looks like.....
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (on chocks as the motors can be back driven).

    Attached Files:

  15. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  16. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Ah thanks for that but it was more that I had it leaning into the corners rather than leaning out, although I'm not sure which way it's suppose to be but it just seemed wrong.

    Anyways, started her up today to dosome more testing and things weren't right at all so thought I would change one of the pots as it seemed a little crazy. However I forgot to unplug the arduino before soldering and blew it to kingdom come :( I've ordered another one but it's going to take days to get delivered. I should have known better (infact I did know) but my haste got the better of me sadly.
  17. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Hmm ok, so it turns out I hadn't blown it up, well maybe not completely. I have it connected again but Pin 2 on the arduino is never changing polarity and therefore the motor only ever turns in one direction :/ I dont suppose you have any thoughts? Seems unusual to blow 1 particular pin on an arduino. Saying that I think I have a spare 32b somewhere I might just swapp it out and see what happpens.
  18. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Scratch everythiong I said :) I figured it all out. In my haste to rationalise the wiring I had connected the left pot to the right motor and the right pot to the left motor :D It's always good to have a refresher on just how stupid I can be. I'm back up and running, now I just have to work out all this PID stuff, all very confusing. Sorry for the multiple replies but some times I just need a sounding post & today you were that post :)
  19. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    Hi @p00ky. Good job so far on the sim build, Ive got a few pointers if you want them with the frame build. I see that you have nearly finished building it but if you get problems again then this may help
    You mentioned that the frame shook itself apart on the first test which suggests your welds are not strong enough. When welding you cant butt two pieces of steel together, weld them then grind the weld back to make it look ok as the weld will be very thin and weak. To get a stronger weld try chamfering the end of the two pieces to be joined three quarters of the way through the thickness of the material. So if your using box section with a 3mm wall then chamfer about 2mm or a little more then when you butt the two pieces together you will have a small v grove with a larger surface area to fill with weld. Once the weld has cooled you can grind the weld down flush to make it look good and still be strong. Id use a 2.5mm welding rod on a 3mm wall and turn the welder up to just before you start to blow holes in the material and use an offcut of the material you are going to weld to set the welder up. Id use a sanding disk on the grinder prob 60 grit to grind the welds down as when painted you probably wont be able to see them
    Also the twist in the frame of about 10mm is probably due to the welds pulling as they cool. Try spot welding the 4 corners of the box section then weld alternate sides or better is to spot weld a brace in place then cut it away after its all cooled.
    Don't burn yourself
    Please mind your eyes
    hope this helps buddy and keep up the good work
    Matt
    • Like Like x 2
  20. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    Hi & thanks for the advice, I can certainly do with it. Stick welding really isn't my forte & it would probably a wise plan to go back over half the frame, grinding them out and re doing a lot of it. A lot of the welds were on 90 degree angles & more than enough times I would completly miss the corner or get what looked like a perfect bead only to find out it was majority slag but I guess you have to start some where.

    All that said, I have had an evening on Dirt Rally 2 with out anything falling off, so I'm going to call that at least a partial win for now.
  21. p00ky

    p00ky Member

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    2DOF, Arduino
    Another day another update :D

    So while tuning the PID in SMC3Util I realised that my pot cogs weren't being utilized efficiently. So I changed the Ratio on the pot to 2.4:1 which maximised the motion. This however made me look at the rest angle, which I then changed from 45 degrees to 20 degrees. This then lead me to change the rod lengths but also made me realise I hadn't optimized on the crank angle but that's trouble for another day.

    One problem I have noticed which if anyone has any ideas about, I loved to hear them, is that when I hit the "Clip Input" at the bottem of the crank stroke, my motors turn off :/ at the top of the stroke the "Clip Input" Works as expected.

    Im using a modified version of the SMC3 code for the cytron boards made by Blame73 (I've left him a message about this, waiting on a response). It's basically the same code, set for mode 2, where the pwm hasn't been flipped. I'm sure there is some way it can be sorted but I must admit I'm a little stumped. I may well be barking up the wrong tree altogether :D