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24V motors used with only 12V power supply

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by MarkusB, Nov 21, 2016.

  1. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Dear experts,

    at the moment I am using these 200W worm gear motors from motiondynamics:
    https://www.motiondynamics.com.au/worm-drive-motor-12v-24v-200w-180-rpm-20nm-torque.html

    Because of the low holding torque I consider switching to wheel chair motors. Unfortunately they these are usually 24V motors, and I am using JRK 12v12 boards with a 12V PSU.

    I know that the JRK 12v12 boards have an operating range of up to 16V, but let us assume for now that I keep the 12V supply.

    My questions are:
    1. Can I assume that the rounds per minute have a linear dependency with the voltage, so that 12V means have of the speed compared to 24V?
    2. What is the approximate torque ratio between 24V and 12V?
    3. Has anybody of you tried this (24V motor run with only 12V)? If so, what are your experiences?
    Thanks a lot for any advice,
    Markus
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. obobo

    obobo Active Member

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    You are sure that the specifications are different, the site data indicate fixed values.

    Do you have the 24V version that you supply in 12V or a 12V motor?
  4. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi @obobo,
    thanks for your quick reply.

    I don't understand what you mean with this sentence. What specifications do you mean? The spec of the motor or the spec of the JRK 12v12?
    The spec of the motor says 12V, and the spec of the JRK board says: operating range 6-16V.

    I have the 12V version and I am using it with 12V.
    But as I posted before, I consider to replace this 12V motor (that I am using right now) with a 24V motor.
    And my question is what impact this will have concerning the RPM and torque.
  5. obobo

    obobo Active Member

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    the only things you get is A lower current consumption with 24v motor if you stay with the motor you give link

    If you plan to use the 24V motor with your 12v12 up to 16V, you will lose about 30% torque and speed

    I said that on your link, the engines in 12V or 24V have the same technical specifications besides the consumption of current.
    Therefore replacing one by the other does not theoretically change anything if you also change your power supply and the engine control board
  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    You could run a 24v motor on 12v, but you won't get the best out of it.

    An easier solution, given the rest of your existing gear, would be to change the 25:1 gearboxes for 50:1 or 60:1 gearboxes, which significantly increases the torque capacity and they also can't be back driven.
  7. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    half voltage =>> half speed

    but for my 2DOF it was enough ;)
  8. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Thanks a lot for your answers, @obobo, @noorbeast, and @RacingMat!

    @obobo: It won't be the same motors. It would have been these wheel chair motors that I considered to use:
    http://www.ebay.de/itm/302132682895?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

    @RacingMat: Yes, I also think it could be enough. It would mean about 60 RPM with 12V. And I am mainly focused on flight simulations.

    @noorbeast: This is indeed a good thought. It would be this one, right?
    https://www.motiondynamics.com.au/worm-drive-gearbox-to-suit-industrial-motors.html
    I am just not able to select other ratios than 12.5:1 and 25:1 in the drop down box.
    And until now I do not see how I would connect the levers and pots to this shaft. My current motors have a hollow axis, and it was easy to just push a 1/2 inch axis through. But this one is complete other gear.
  9. obobo

    obobo Active Member

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    Honestly, are you sure that the price / performance ratio of these engines is really good?

    there is no info on the available torque

    There must be a better compromise in my opinion
  10. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    I am guessing MD may be short of stock at the moment, as they normally carry the 50:1 and 60:1 in stock.

    The 60:1 have a solid shaft with a keyway and this is how I attached the levers: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/how-to-attach-levers-to-wormdrive-gearboxes.182/

    The 50:1s have a plain round solid shaft with an 8mm hole all the way through, so you can bolt a tube lever to it. I was a bit concerned about the strength with such a large existing bolt hole through the shaft so I had a custom machined tube made that is an interference fit, with a step down ridge to clear the gearbox housing and stepped up to provide more material and support for the securing bolt: https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...-are-people-mounting-levers.9109/#post-114528

    The 50:1s have a tapped bolt hole in the end but for the 60:1 I drilled and tapped an 8mm hole and used a cut off bolt and flexible coupling to mount the pots, the shafts are not hardened so you can drill them easily: https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...ountdown-to-2dof-build.6177/page-2#post-68381

    As they can't be back driven this is how you set up the pots: https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...-feedback-on-50-1-and-60-1-gearbox-motors.58/

    As is normal with wormdrive gearboxes it is normal to have a slight amount of free play: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/setting-feedback-on-50-1-60-1-boxes.9116/#post-114703
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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  11. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Thanks again, @noorbeast. Your explanations for mounting the levers are great!
    Just one more question about this gearbox, since it seems that I am not so good in reading technical drawings.
    Gearbox.jpg
    Is the 8mm hole (see the red dotted line) going through the entire shaft?
  12. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    OK, now motiondynamics has the 50:1 and 60:1 gearboxes in stock again, but 241$ (167€) for a single gearbox is really too much.

    Actually the product price of 108$ (75€) would be ok for me, but together with shipping (169$ / 117€ for 2 gear boxes) plus German tax (70€) is not reasonable anymore. I did accept this for the motors, but now I will look for alternatives.
  13. se041

    se041 New Member

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    Hi @MarkusB ,

    I also have a hard time at the moment to find proper 12V motors in Germany. All import options are unfortunately resulting in unreasonable prices.

    Have you thought about switching your rig to 24V ? I have the feeling that we have better chances to get good 24V motors for reasonable prices in DE (ebay)

    But - are you using your current motors in a 2DOF rig? Do you have some pics of that rig? I'm wondering that the motors are unsufficient.

    P.S: In case you found some proper replacements (no matter which Voltage) - Please let me know. I might also be interested in your "old" motors from Motiondynamics.:D
  14. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi @se041,

    about switching to 24V: you are eight that 24V motors are easier to get here. But I am running ma rig with JEK 12v12 boards, which are not designed for 24V. And I would not like to replace them because they are working perfectly and are very easy to use.

    Here is a link to my build thread:
    Wooden 2 DOF Seat Mover with Wind & Vibration for Oculus Rift

    It originally is a 2DOF rig, but as soon as the "heave flaps" on the seat are working, it will become 3DOF.

    Actually my motors are rather strong and should be ok for a seat mover, but without the bungee ropes on both sides (see the photos in my thread) they don't manage to return the seat from a full roll movement back to the neutral position. So it is actually working now, but I would like to have some spare power in terms of more torque.
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  15. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    If your 25's aren't returning to center, And need the bungee cords, You got a balance issues on the pivot. Or you got a really wrong PID setting.



    PS the Motor's your looking at are very similar if not identical to the Wheel chair motor's Myself and Milton have as well as another member ive seen using them on here. They CAN be back driven, so if thats one of your main points to buy them, Just thought i would let ya know.
  16. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Thanks for the information about the wheel chair motors and the possible issues with my rig, @Nick Moxley! That's really appeciated!

    In neutral position my rig is very well balanced. Only when tilted completely to one side (which is 12-15 degrees), the motors have these problems. Ok, to be honest I was surprised to have such a large roll angle. The pitch angle just goes from -6 to +6 degrees. With my original design, both the roll and the pitch angle were rather equal, reaching from -10 to +10 degrees. Maybe I will change the position of the rod mounts at the backrest.

    And I will try to optimize the PID settings.
  17. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    How did you set up your feedback in the JRK ? how much Physical movement ? 40mm up 40mm down ?