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Question First Build - Preliminary Questions

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by mayoms, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. mayoms

    mayoms New Member

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    Hello X-Sim Community--

    I stumbled on to this board while researching gaming chairs and adding buttkicker shakers to something like the playchair. After spending the whole weekend reading about motion simulators, reading the FAQs and reading through folks builds and I am 100% sure I'll be building something -- but I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the options. I was hoping to get some questions answered, so it can help me start to design a chair.

    About me: I am generally a pretty handy fellow. I spent my teenage years and twenties working in construction and building houses. I have a full toolset for home-repair-type things. I'm a software engineer and I feel confident in my abilities in terms of figuring out any programming for the controller, etc..

    My needs:

    1. This will primarily be for flight simulation. I primarily play Elite Dangerous in VR, and I want to build it based around that dynamic. There are other games of course (SC, DCS, Eve..). I think I'd also enjoy getting into something like project cars, but mostly a distraction from my main hobby, Space Sims. I have read that ED is a moving target in terms of software support (lack of telemetry data). I am happy to deal with any lag in support when a new release comes out, and if I find myself capable, will be glad to contribute to helping to get the plugin working again.

    2. Needs to be as compact as possible. This rig built by DOFReality looks great:

    image_fly.jpg
    ...and I don't think I'd want to be any bigger than around this size.

    I was also very impressed with @RacingMat's 2DOF Truck Wiper Build, as well as @pipis2015's seat mover (I would link, but this is my first post and the spam filter is preventing me). All great examples of the size I can deal with.

    3. As light and portable as possible. And to define portable - I just need to be able to get it out of the way when we have guests. Our basement serves as my VR playspace most of the time, but I need to be able to put the thing away when my wife wants it out of sight. I don't mind if this requires some disassembly.


    Questions:

    1. 2DOF vs 3DOF for flight simulation: I am generally inclined towards 2DOF for this first attempt, and I know in ED roll & pitch are much more important to the flight mechanics than yaw. I am wondering if there if through profile tweaking I could get some sort of physical feedback that my brain would interpret as yaw (as I'd be in VR and wouldn't need to see my space actually move that much. Yaw is typically used to fine tune orientation towards some target (whether in combat or landing, etc), and I was thinking maybe a slight directional roll, that returns to center when I engaged yaw in one direction or another.

    2. Seatmover vs platform: I play with an Oculus Rift, so I won't need to mount monitors or other equipment. I'll be attaching my HOTAS to the chair in a similar manor to the DOF Reality rig above, so I am wondering if a seat mover will be able to do the job for me. Again, in VR I will be getting immersive visual queues for movement, so I am wondering if the lower degree of movement will matter? If I got just slight amounts of pitch and yaw from this rig, is that going to be 'as good' as the greater movement provided by a full frame?

    I also thought about making a super low profile platform. Pretty much only adding a footrest to the frame the seat is attached to (and maybe start using pedals for yaw).

    3. Materials: A lot of folks are welding angled steel, etc.. I was thinking about doing something like @TimmeyNL's pipe build, but using a pipe threader and assembling it instead of welding. Does anyone have any experience with this?

    I also was thinking about using heavy duty PVC- the only builds I've seen are Joyriders, which are way to big for my requirements. The joyrider seems to be really structurally sound, and I am guessing that is because of it's size, and the way the assembly is reinforced. Is PVC strong enough to be the base for the examples I am looking to base my build on?

    I have a ton more questions, but I'll leave it there for now!
  2. gSeat

    gSeat Member

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    same here, and like you I want compact, so just getting the parts now to just MAKE IT :) with the support of this awesome community...you've got to decide how much time you want/have available, I limit myself to about an hour a day usually reading/posting/buying related to sim because I have other unrelated projects, it'll also help keep you focused on an objective, like in software design ;) If you have a ton of extra money and time to make this a bigger hobby - look at 6dof, otherwise, maybe start with 2dof and go from there, that's what I'm doing. 2dof, BUT ordered a 3rd motor and JRK because of black friday sale(i'm not using linear actuators, using "pgsaw"seller ebay motors like many from here


    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/
    the FAQ contains an insane amount of awesome info, but it is a little odd to navigate at times, sometimes a search here or on the net turns up the info easier
    What kind of simulator for me
    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/what-kind-of-simulator-for-me.214/

    (@Pit or @RaceRay there is a duplicate entry if you search the faq for "for me" there is a duplicate for "what kind of simulator for me")



    SimTools
    https://www.xsimulator.net/simtools-quickstart/
    https://www.xsimulator.net/simtools-complete-documentation/
    https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...ugin-for-simtools-2-0-api-documentation.9107/
    [/quote]

    I want to get into Elite Dangerous myself, and started out like you wanting that, and still do, but basically at the stage of build it and try it since I've never experienced it, and it may suffice at first + time limitations...there are shaker/full frame and people have conflicting opinions regarding the feeling of both in racing and flight.
    Also read that with Elite Dangerous, the way they compile the update, the devs that is...just the way the game was design and is still functioning, makes plugin development more of a tedious process for each update...forget where I read it

    Same here, I want to be able to break it down easily for transport, but realistically when it is in use, depending on how tall you are and what kind of leg/pedal setup you have, it will still take up some space obviously, especially with traction loss which is more of a racing thing, and it is different from yaw...yaw is from the center pivot, traction loss pivots more in the rear to emulate the real life situation of rear tires losing traction...however traction loss may serve well as yaw for flight sim as a compromise, people have commented on the DOF reality being fine with it. On a side note, I almost went with dof reality because the price is very convenient, and you don't have to learn much to get into it...I still ask myself "wtf did you choose DIY for?" LOL ...but I like learning and it gives me an excuse to refresh on hardware and learn new information :) and that's a huge reason I limit myself to an hour a day max...which is still a good amount when you think about it. With dof reality you would still need to buy all accessories of course, but you save MUCH time.

    There are many compact frames out there, but if you end up going DIY, don't limit your research to only those, use ideas from all rigs, see what you might like/etc. Only because they pop up the most in my brain and searches I think of bsft(old user) @noorbeast and @mirkobastianini and @Zed....many many awesome builds here...if you have a lot of extra time and hardware engineering knowledge (or desire), implement some strategies of @SeatTime

    One thing I might do for breakdown ability is use compression clamps under the seat for quick release in order to not need to grab a wrench/power drill ...think the quick release clamps for bike seats, instead of nuts for the seat mount, I'll probably go with those, costs more, but again, that's DIY fun..
    [/quote]

    again same...fiberglass, carbon fiber, aluminum....I am most likely going to use "80/20 aka t-slot aluminum framing" there are MANY different styles, so make sure you get what you actually want if you go that route... carbon fiber can be dangerous, because it will SHATTER upon failure, not gradually bend...that's the gist, but if you go carbon fiber for rods, make sure you test correctly, wrap correctly, measure inside/outside diameter and other...


    not sure , hear it works fine, and in simtools you can mess around with existing profiles to customize for yourself

    slight is good from what i've read, when you see videos that "look cool" those are set at high degrees of travel, unlike that which you'd actually use, video of finely tunes motion sims looks less "exciting" in general, at least for 2dof/3dof

    red: low profile, yes that's what some of the users I mention do, and other commercial sims, you can make it detachable/foldable at some point

    haven't seen @TimmeyNL build, will check it out, regarding PVC with motion, even with pvc cement, I'm not sure, BUT you could wrap it in fiberglass or carbon fiber :) then you'd be set. I also thought of that, but when it's all said and done, the amount of time and cost of fiberglass or carbon fiber to cover it would cost more than just buying ready made carbon fiber tubing or 80/20 t slot aluminum...could be wrong

    HAVE FUN!
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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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  4. mayoms

    mayoms New Member

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    @noorbeast

    I just responded in your DX-Racer thread hoping to cop some plans from you. ;) Glad to see you responding in my thread. I hear you on the motor torque. I was looking at these worm drives from the FAQ:

    <ebay_url_redacted_can't_post_links_yet>/GEAR-MOTOR-12-VOLT-GREAT-FOR-SAWMILL-CRAB-POT-PULL-FEED-SIMULATOR-75-80RPM-50-1-/371596157992

    I was originally looking at wiper motors for cost, but after seeing several folks recommend to go for the best motors you can-- and also what you just pointed out for compact builds, I think these might be a better choice. Do you think the 50:1 ratio will be a good fit? Any other thoughts on those particular motors?
  5. mayoms

    mayoms New Member

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    @gSeat

    Thanks for jumping in to this thread. I hadn't considered the t-slot aluminum. I'd love to build with that, but I think the price is prohibitive. I was super inspired by @noorbeast's DX-Racer build and I think I'll be using box-aluminum bolted.

    I'd originally wanted to do an aluminum build, but don't have access to proper welding equipment (MIG only) -- after seeing the DX racer, which is bolted together (and how easily he is able to disassemble/alter the design), I've decided that's the ticket.
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  6. Remishka

    Remishka Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Hello,

    Maybe you could begin with a 2 DOF design that could "easely " be upgraded to a 3DOF later on if the 2DOF are not enought...

    Also you could consider some bits of wood here and there, not sure that it would be totally lightweight compared to let's say aluminium but it is relatively easy to work and shape plus it can bend a bit before breaking.

    If you do a Platform more than a seat maybe that you would need a bit more power ( Transformer, battery.. ) for bigger motors, ( i'm not sure of this because i'm not familiar with Platform design ).

    Anyway you were doing construction, now software engineer, I'm sure that you will do an amazing piece :)
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  7. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I found the Motion Dynamics 50:1s did not get back driven when new but can be back driven when they are worn in a bit. Even so they are suited to a compact design if you use a modest lever CTC to make the most of the torque.
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  8. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Reverb Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Just my experience on basically completing a 2 dof full-frame motion sim for VR...

    You don’t need a lot of movement to really add to the experience in VR. It’s maybe more important to get good fidelity so the motion cues you get accurately match what you are seeing. I’m running with around +/- 10 degrees on the roll axis and around -5/+10 on pitch but haven’t measured. Those are guesses. For me, though, it’s plenty. Low angle displacements/movements also work better for VR without motion cancellation which appears to be problematic with the Rift right now.

    Though I haven’t tried a seat mover myself, the general thoughts here are seat movers are great for driving and even add some extra sensations due to the seat moving while controls are stationary. Driving needs much more fidelity and faster response than flying because you want bumps and curbs to happen as you see them and with no lag. Full frame sims have more mass, are larger, and necessarily respond a bit slower but are more appropriate for flying. But in all cases, the lighter your rig within strength requirements, the better. You want the rig to follow the commanded positions accurately. I am not sure about threaded pipe. You’d need to pin connections and you would need couplings or slip connections to build closed loops.

    As to 2 vs 3 dof, I was really amazed at how much I could feel "yaw" and "sway" on a 2 dof in VR. Only my opinion but I don’t miss the extra mechanical axis. On the other hand, now that I’ve built a 2, I am going to start working out a compact six. Compact thanks to VR seeming to not really need big motions. Should make it a lot easier to build, smaller, and cheaper. But I wouldn’t have had the confidence to even attempt it without the background of building my own 2 dof.

    Other than that, definitely a huge fan of bass shakers. They aren’t a dof but they add so much to feel the vibrations and bumps. Another thing that adds so much to the experience is wind. It also makes VR much more comfortable. You can scale the effect so it’s appropriate even for closed cockpit sims as in vent ram air flows, or run at full speed and depending on your blowers and setup, get up to 60 to 70 mph wind. You need Pro level SimTools for wind and not sure but I think for the upcoming Game Vibe application.

    Depending on what way you choose to go, you may find a 3D printer is handy. For me it’s been essential but I have done things differently for various parts of my rig and needed lots of custom parts. It kind of mushroomed because once I didn’t need to design around what I could piece together through other means, I could purpose build all sorts of parts to do and be exactly what I wanted.

    Last, something I just learned, for flight setups in SimTools, don’t even bother with the basic axis setups. You need the ones with filters because there is a return to center function. Without that, your platform can get confused and lean one way or another after various maneuvers. Anything where you can loop or roll or that tends to have the possibility for different motion rates in and out of maneuvers probably needs the filter stuff. I’m thinking of even going back and reworking my driving setups to have that.

    There’s lots to come up to speed with but it’s so worth it when you get movement working especially in VR. It sounds like you’ve done a lot of homework already so hopefully this screed helps. Motion is very worth the cost and effort, though. It’s just bizarre how it feels.

    Good luck!
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  9. mayoms

    mayoms New Member

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    @Zed

    Thanks for your advice here. I was leaning towards a 2dof compact frame build, and you have me convinced that is the right decision. Since I am going to follow @noorbeast's example and bold the thing together, I feel like I can take it apart and add another DOF if I feel it is necessary. I am trying to design the frame with that in mind.

    I'm interested in this statement:
    Does your sim sub small amounts of roll for sway/yaw, or what sort of movement does it make?

    Since my primary use case is going to be space sims, I have been trying to think of ways I can 'sub' some sort of haptic (or other) feedback for a DOF. For example, an idea I had was to mount bass shakers on the left and right side of the chair, and if I am strafing left, that would engage the shaker on the right side of the chair.. basicially mimicking the rumble of engaging the thrusters located on that side of the boat. I could mount a shakers to simulate heave and surge as well, though I think that gets more tricky and expensive (I think that ends up being what, 6 shaker? I probably would go the DIY route rather than buying buttkickers at that point).

    For a third DOF I think that I am more interested in surge than yaw at this point. Mostly for the sensation of engaging boosters or afterburner and being rushed forward/thrown toward the back of your seat. I have seen some GSeat builds, and that is interesting, though most of them look uncomfortable. I was really impressed with the hidden g-seat that @Spit40 made. I really, really like that design.. and maybe after getting a 2dof under my belt I might think about taking apart my chair to do something similar.

    Also, I just picked up a 3d printer and have enjoyed playing with it. Mostly I've printed out little models and a detent mod for my throttle. What sort of custom parts did you need to print out?
  10. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Reverb Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    All it can do for yaw/traction loss is roll, and sway is also roll but in the opposite direction. It’s really weird but it still feels like yaw and sway when you have the VR visual cues.

    As to stuff I’ve printed, in the photos here (https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...-build-a-3d-printer-has-been-essential.10642/) all the red is 3D printed. Lots of other stuff too. Joystick mount and extension pieces, electronics boxes, power entry modules, trim pieces, mounts, standoffs, etc.

    Others can comment but things seem to work best when you let the software just do its thing. I had sway backwards early on and it just felt weird. Noorbeast mentioned it’s reversed from roll and things got way better. If you wire your shakers in reversed, they’ll always be reversed unless you add a switch to swap and unswap. But it’s also a personal preference thing. You can set things up however you want. The software is just interpreting accelerations and commanding motors per your setups.
  11. Spit40

    Spit40 VR Flyer

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    @mayoms thanks for your kind comments on my g-seat design. I actually finished it (as much as these things ever are) last night and will post more shortly. I was hoping it would inspire others as i figured there must be people who'd like to convert a normal comfortable seat rather than build something in wood/steel. I may well prepare some summarised build points including all the the 'learned the hard way' tips i can remember.
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  12. mayoms

    mayoms New Member

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    @Spit40 please do, if you don't mind. More and more I think that a g-seat will provide what I am looking for in terms of compactness, and flight-sim oriented tactile simulation. I am following your build thread, and look forward to more details.
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  13. mayoms

    mayoms New Member

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    Would you mind explaining what you mean by `lever CTC`?
  14. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Reverb Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    CTC is center to center distance on an output arm. Longer CTC distances for a given angular motion give you faster travel and bigger movements but at the expense of force. But everything works together. The distance from the sim pivot to the attachment point, motor torque, and gear ratios also matter. If you are constrained in one way you can maybe fix it by compensating in another parameter.
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  15. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    CTC = Center To Center, the distance between construction objects, most commonly used when discussing the distance between the center of the motor shaft and holes in the levers used on a motion simulator.

    You will always stumble over some acronym or the other, so when you do check it out in our handy Glossary: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/glossary-of-acronyms-and-names.66/
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  16. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Beat me to it @Zed :grin
  17. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Reverb Gold Contributor

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    Apparently just by a heartbeat! I checked to see if you were online too but didn’t see you otherwise I’d have left it to you since you have a ready reference of great FAQ entries and such. As you showed again!