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value1

X-Plane V10 Plugin 2.0.2.0

SimTools game plugin for X-Plane V10

  1. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    Same story, if you use the extra1 rumble. It has to be washout to bring the cue to the center

    Info:
    Washout on extra1 concerns the alternative version of the plugin.

    @value1 plugin outputs 3Euler 3accel 3velocities in the extras.
    Alternative plugin outputs 3velocities, 3accel, runway exageration on extra1 engine rpm and stall shakes on extra2

    Thanks
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  2. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    I can’t remember exactly and will not be in the front of this computer for couple of weeks.

    You can start with 9 for velocities and 20 for accelerations. This should give you a pretty “small” motion. Decrease simetrically min/max to make the response „bigger“
    The Tuning Center screenshot was made with values I‘ve used for testing the stock Cessna 172. Assignments are pretty easy. Do you have trouble with them?
  3. Psionic001

    Psionic001 Active Member Gold Contributor

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    I've got most of it tuned but I only wanted to verify what you had to see if I'm on the right track.
    There are no good instructions for your "alternate plugin" so I'm also having trouble working out where to assign extra 1 and 2. If there are some instructions somewhere, could you please post a link?
    Thank you

  4. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    The idea is to put the extras on the heave (column DOF2 nad DOF3 at 100 percent).

  5. John458

    John458 Member

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    Thanks @hexpod for your reply.. tried that as you suggested and it still stays off to the right?... not sure if i was very clear above thou .. I understand washout returns an initial movement back to centre etc. However the heave is just pinned to the right around 70% axis use (as per previous screenshot) as its "default" starting position. it never goes back to 0% just moves left and right from its right 70% mark. Hope that makes sense.

    Cheers
  6. Psionic001

    Psionic001 Active Member Gold Contributor

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    @hexpod
    Is this the 1G issue we have seen before that Xplane outputs? I think you made a modified version of your Alternative Xplane plugin to factor this in.

    @John458 can you post a screen grab of your HexPod interface?


  7. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    Yes, I think I understand what you say.

    The reason for that is pretty simple.
    Xplane displays the accelerations in a similar way to the accelerometer which you have in your smartphone. It is conteining the gravity component.

    If you have an iPhone you can download a cool app which displays the gyro and accelerometer on your screen. I believe this is a complete 6-dof telemetry your senses can perceive and that’s what we need for our platforms. You can rotate your phone and observe how the gravity moves from one axis to another.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sensor-toolbox-multitool/id1383687190?ls=1&mt=8

    908424E8-6691-4489-B666-FDF830F4548F.jpeg

    Once you rotate your plane (without any motion) this 9,8m/ss will “move” over 3 axis adding and subtracting this value and the total of it will always be 9.8m/ss. I think one call it the gravity component.
    So... if in the Tuning Center your min/max is 20, you will see your heave slider in simtools above the center. It’s logical.

    The washout will not bring this value down it will bring down your axis value and your platform should be centered.

    One has to know one thing: as far as your axis is not topping the plugin value, you will get your motion as you need it with simtools washout.

    Have fun playing with it.

    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  8. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    Yes it is precisely this.

    1.) in the simtools 2.3 we couldn’t bring the axis to the center because the washout (High Pass filter) didn’t had a correct math for that. Now @yobuddy corrected it and it’s possible.

    2.) I was bothering @value1 to bring down the gravity component to 0 and it was a good workaround. The issue with this is that doing so, in inverted flight we would get a double value which could lead to the axis topping issue.

    Unless we do a serious math conversion inside the plugin which I can not comprehend, I believe it’s better to leave it positive and apply a washout.

    Thanks.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  9. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    We have brilliant brainy math guys in the forum, maybe someone could pronounce himself if this kind of conversion could be useful for our application.

    64D29B32-532D-407B-9B5A-952137686373.jpeg

    @Dirty @pmvcda others ... what do you think ?
  10. Psionic001

    Psionic001 Active Member Gold Contributor

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    @hexpod I have more questions.... sorry...

    My roll and pitch axes are getting significant clipping. Is there any way to "soft-stop" these so the rig does not jolt so much? and then ease between each clipping point?
    or do we simply have to limit each axis intensity so it just does not get to the clipping point. And if so, which is the preferred way to do that?
    1) Reducing the overall Intensity level in profile editor; or
    2) Reducing the DoF force % in Axis assignment; or
    3) Using Axis limiting to reduce amount of axis used; or
    4) In Hexpod, reduce the max roll angle
    I assume it's #2 or #3 above right?

    ALSO: Do you have the surge directly proportional to throttle position?, because I get a lot of surge at high throttle positions even when I'm not accelerating.
    I mix surge into the pitch axis so when I'm accelerating on the runway I get lots of tilt, but this is no good if it just equates to throttle position. I also added a ton of washout to try and make it fade away, but that does not help.

    Finally, when I crash in X-Plane, it is very violent, and I think we need an "elegant crash state". Xplane has a dataRef called "has_crashed". Do you think you could experiment with that, and when it sets to true, the movements of the sim reduce to say 10% speed so we don't get thrown out of the seat? or is that a combination of your plugin sending info to @yobuddy for SimTools to handle?

    PS: I think we need a seperate thread in the plugins forum for your "X-Plane Alternate" plugin. Must bee confusing to new users here.
  11. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    I have more questions.... sorry...

    My roll and pitch axes are getting significant clipping. Is there any way to "soft-stop" these so the rig does not jolt so much? and then ease between each clipping point?
    or do we simply have to limit each axis intensity so it just does not get to the clipping point. And if so, which is the preferred way to do that?
    1) Reducing the overall Intensity level in profile editor; or
    2) Reducing the DoF force % in Axis assignment; or
    3) Using Axis limiting to reduce amount of axis used; or
    4) In Hexpod, reduce the max roll angle
    I assume it's #2 or #3 above right?


    1) No, As far as I know, this Intensity level slider in SimTools adds a smoothing filter (LP EMA first order) to the all axis. Theoretically it is supposed to keep the motion abruptness (instantaneous kick) and slow more and more down the response reaching the destination. A bit like a Proportional in PiD controller.

    It can reduce the range of short cues with very high values but not the sustained cues.

    You can use Profile Editor's Editor tab. This is increasing or decreasing the Tuning Center values by +- 50 percent.

    I guess this is an easy access to change dynamically your Tuning Center values while you change from high performance to slow performance airplane or for tweaking purposes.

    I recommend values for each aircraft set manually in Tunung Center. Now, you can apparently save/load them for each aircraft in SimTools 2.4

    2) No. in some rare cases, maybe you will do it but only for the "Tilt Coordination" … maybe.

    3) No, I guess it will act like a range limiter - hexpod's "axis intensities".

    4) No. this is ment to give the room for your workspace and protect the mechanics. (although you have high performance joints, you could be in trouble if you would max all your dofs without this limiter)
    I recommend to limit somewhere at 2/3 of your max capability for rotations (if max 30 set it at 20) and around 50 percent for your linear dofs.

    You may want to fulfil a percentage or the whole axis accordingly to your dof range. For that you may not exceed your scale.

    Ex: extra 300 has a rotational velocity somewhere about 7rad/s (400deg./s). If you set it below 7 using this aircraft you will clip your axis.


    ALSO: Do you have the surge directly proportional to throttle position?, because I get a lot of surge at high throttle positions even when I'm not accelerating.
    I mix surge into the pitch axis so when I'm accelerating on the runway I get lots of tilt, but this is no good if it just equates to throttle position. I also added a ton of washout to try and make it fade away, but that does not help.


    I would advise to apply washout everywhere except to your "mix surge into the pitch" and "sway into the roll" (Tilt Coordination)
    It should not just equates to throttle position. It should equate to the mix of thrust and gravity.

    Finally, when I crash in X-Plane, it is very violent, and I think we need an "elegant crash state". Xplane has a dataRef called "has_crashed". Do you think you could experiment with that, and when it sets to true, the movements of the sim reduce to say 10% speed so we don't get thrown out of the seat? or is that a combination of your plugin sending info to @yobuddy for SimTools to handle?


    Yes, a crash detector is a great idea for Simtools where the accidents and crashes are unavoidable especially in racing games or Combat Flight sims.

    The reduction to 10 percent might be a good idea or after it detect a huge accel value (user defended) It could skip the motion for 3 or 5s and gently parc the platform during this time.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  12. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    Cancelling the gravity vector out of the measured accelerations is possible. It is a lot of sin() and cos() functions but you can do it. The question is: Are you sure you want this? After all, the acceleration IS actually there.

    Standing on an incline would no longer feel like an incline, uncoordinated flight would not feel uncoordinated any more. All in all, the acceleration from gravity is present for good reasons and it should be represented in the motion cueing algorithm.

    Of course, you don't want your rig to be continuously displaced upwards because of that 1G but it is the job of the washout filter to get rid of that in the long run.

    Dirty :)
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  13. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    If I understand correctly, this famous gravity component represented by 1G or 9,81m/ss is the correct way and should be “standard” to output the accelerations.

    Is this the case in all major flying titles ? P3d etc.
  14. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    As far as I know, yes it is pretty much the standard. At least in the context of flightsims I have never seen the gravity component missing.

    I know many will think this is nitpicking, but what you see is not even gravity :) This acceleration is the ground pushing against the wheels, or the wings generating lift. Either way you look at it, there IS a force acting on the vehicle, so there is no reason to leave it out. :)

    Dirty :)
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  15. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    In my experience thou, this can cause a problem.
    I found in some games with this 1g added, when you bank to one side the 1g gravity is now affecting sway.
    With the nose pointed up at the sky the 1g now affects Surge.
    So while it does make sense for it to be there for real life stuff, I don't think we want it for cuing a sim?
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  16. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    The fact the bank doesn’t affect the sway seems odd. Maybe a bug or a misconception in the game.

    I understand not every game has a serious approach while dealing or outputting the forces. That’s a bit unfortunate for us.
  17. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    Hey :)

    I can only speak for DCS, X-Plane and P3D as these are the only ones that I have seen telemetry data from, but in all of them the exported accelerations were proper accelerations. For good reasons, I think :)

    Depends on what you mean by "bank". If you are in a coordinated turn, then this is exactly what I'd expect. No lateral forces => No sway.
    H0wever, if we are talking about knife edge flight (drastic example) then there should be a lateral acceleration present. This acceleration is not actually coming from gravity, it is coming from the fuselage of the aircraft generating lift. Still: Lateral forces present => Sway present.

    Same here. If you are in a glider (no thrust) then there will be no acceleration present on the aircraft. No thrust => No surge.
    But if the aircraft has propulsion then you will feel a longitudinal acceleration. Again, this acceleration is not gravity, it is coming from the thrust generated by the propulsion system. Still: Thrust surplus present => Longitudinal acceleration present.

    :) I do :) And the reason why I do is NOT: "Because gravity needs to be in there". It doesn't! In fact I have argued everywhere on the forums to accept that gravity is not even a force. The reason I want "it" to be in there, or better: Why I want you guys to not cancel it out is, because you would cancel out forces that ARE definitely there and belong there. Forces that the occupant would feel and that have every right to be present in motion cueing.

    How about I renew my challenge that I made somewhere in another thread: Please describe to me situations where you would want "gravity" to not be there, and I will describe to you in great detail why...
    1. It is not gravity, and
    2. It should definitely be there.
    I think if you gave me a dozen such situations and I could explain each situation, it would eventually lead to more people understanding the matter intuitively.

    To put it in somewhat figurative speech: "My heart starts bleeding every time someone talks about cancelling out gravity, because every time it means that someone missed a central point of motion cueing and every time someone wants to cancel out forces that should be perceivable for the occupant".

    Dirty :)
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    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  18. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    If you have 1g gravity affecting the vehicle, and this 1g transfers from heave to sway and to surge depending on the vehicle orientation, I can not see how this does not cause artificial cuing.
    I can't remember which game per say had the "floating 1g", but I can tell you it messed up the output.
    I know there are forum posts, here and there for certain plugins, with people complaining of such problems.

    I wish I could remember a good example plugin right now, but from what I remember the car's heave dropped down and up every time you went around a banked corner lol.
    I'm just saying before its dismissed as some sort of theory, maybe we could look at an example of the problem and why it should be corrected.

    I really believe that is just a problem of exporting local vs work coordinates thou, but that is a topic for another day.
    Take care,
    yobuddy
  19. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    I like the argument
  20. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

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    I guess you’re trying to point this potential issue concerning the gravity component.



    @Dirty could you comment please ? False cueing coming from gravity component ?
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019