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Where are all the Kickstarter campaigns?

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by Leo Burton, Feb 2, 2015.

  1. bsft

    bsft

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    I agree on perception of cost and availability. My own rides are attracting attention.
    My dual sims go to car shows , charity events and the local markets, and I have a sign up that says " these are not for sale, they are for hire only" . Despite that, I still get pestered to build and re-sell. And I tell these people I just do not have time or they are looking at 6-12 months build time for even a desk racer due to my lack of time. When really I can bash one together in 12-16 hrs.
    Even if I put double on the cost of a "all in one" , its still cheaper than whats out there.
    But I dont have the resources to back with warranty or help.
    My closest bloke whom I built a custom sim for is still 45 mins drive one way. And with my time frame, I have to arrange things 3-4 days in advance to go there.
    People are aware of whats out there and the significant cost. I dont really have competition when it comes to motion sim hire. Mine is very cheap and offers more variety of games (thanks to Simtools) and suits kids to adults.
    The next motion guy after me is a bloke with 4 3DOF dox units, he hires at 3 hrs $1500 min. he only offers rfactor and its mods.
    My 2 units are $200 for 3 hrs and have more fun games to play. And they suit kids as young as 5 yrs old.
    Mind you, I am not chasing big motorsport days or massive shows. I am working on filling a void that I have seen for such simulators. I am in competition with entertainment like jumping castles, pinball machines, arcade machines, daytona and sega rally sims.
    Overall cost of building these days , thanks to Simtools and the endless efforts of guys like @eaorobbie , @yobuddy , @value1 , @RufusDufus and many other have made it easier to get people going themselves with DIY stuff.
    But DIY still does require user knowledge.
    Commercial are priced high for a reason. One device, one software, no fiddling around.
    Simtools is the easiest be far in DIY software and handles several devices, but it does need user backing as a small change may need an adjustment in a motor setting or code.
    There are some of us here working on "commercial" entities with regards to motion sim stuff, but it is small scale and its done in spare time.
  2. Archie

    Archie Eternal tinkerer

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    Hats off to you @bsft. Even just the thought of lugging my rig around the house so I can work on it is enough for me. I doubt I'd have the willpower to drive them out to shows and set them up!

    I guess that is where the commercial enterprises get the edge - logistics. It would be great to rock up, drop the sides on a trailer and be ready to go. But who has the money for that?!?

    It's funny, my neighbour saw me building my Sim and asked what it was and he said he would want one too. I told him to go to Bunnings then! (Local DIY store for non-Aussies)
    I built a MAME Arcade machine years ago and have had family members enquire about me building one. They get the same response.
    I will eventually sell the MAME Arcade machine I am sure, but I did not build it for that purpose.

    I'm in this to gain knowledge and enjoy the process. To build to sell would be very tedious.
    And after reading about "DreamFlyers" $150,000 investment which eventuated in pretty much nothing for the inventor, there is certainly no money in these builds.
  3. bsft

    bsft

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    My original desk racer just happened to fit into my walk in wardrobe. Granted I have carpet so I could drag the thing out to my desk and set him up. I had thought on castors under it, but didnt get that far. Hence it later became a more portable unit on a frame with castors under it.
    My very rough trailer houses them less tvs on them. I roll them in and out of the trailer using rails inside the boxed trailer and rails on the large door on the back. A bit of mucking around, but they are transportable.
    I had also drawn up a trailer to sit them in and yes, drop the sides and off you go, but the expense and safety logistics canned that idea. Besides, portability means they can go into the Greyhound club for set up
    2014-12-18 21.17.11.jpg
    or the main hall of the Lions club Kids camp for set up.
    lionsclubsetup.jpg
    In the case of outdoors, I roll out a large run, put up the marquee, roll them into position, plug them in and I am in action, well, 20-30mins later I am.
    setupsims.jpg
    I also have been asked to build for friends, and its a case of put up or shut up. No one at this stage has shown me the money , and also the build time of 6 months or more puts them off.
    Fine, go buy a commercial unit
    I really am not sure how many more hits this site is getting from my setup, I know my facebook page gets views.
    Slowly these are getting known.
    There may be some money in them @Archie , as I have found out, its more in hire entertainment than selling. Ive been building for 4 years and basically I have found about 1% of all people whom actually pay to play will wait and spend the money to have one built.
    1% , yes theres been others willing to shell out 2-3 times what they cost to build me, but thats only because they have cash and no brains. They see them and think they can buy in with no idea.
    Wrong.
    Thats why people like http://www.drivearacecar.com.au/ would have spend over $100k setting up 4 units. Thats why he doesnt do smaller kids events, but sticks to V8 supercar days, Summernats, really big car festivals, Easter Shows, etc. He needs to make that money back.
    Yes it looks more professional than mine, but his sims dont suit 5 year olds. He restricts to a 10 year old.
    He doesnt run the range of games I choose to.
    Theres eventual money, but maybe look at hire sims like I have done in your local area. Its too far for me to travel.
    mmm....franchise possibility.......
  4. Archie

    Archie Eternal tinkerer

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Nice setup under the Marquee...
    Yeah, I'm not really into hiring them out etc. I just wanted to build one to see if I could and because my boy seemed to latch on to the whole motion thing as well.
    I'd have to move home anyway if I did... I have no garage and live about 60 feet from street level in a pole home, with more steps than a Hitchcock thriller!

    On the subject of commercial enterprises for Motion Sims....
    I walked past these guys a few months ago (well before I got into the Sim hobby).
    http://www.racecentre.com/sim-purchase

    I didn't have a go. No price list made me think "if I gotta ask, I can't afford it" :)
  5. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Been down this path a few times in the past (for other ventures) and unfortunately it is very hard to have 'no warranty implied', or wash your hands in regard to liability. These DIY sims have the potential to maim and to implement all the WH&S protocols required for sale/use to the general public would substantially increase the price. Don't want to be all negative, but just be careful in heading down this path and make sure you have the right insurances in place, or you could lose your house.
  6. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    2 french guys are selling full kit @400€ to build a 2DOF with a complete tutorial but it's not for business (too cheap), it's for democratizing DIY simbuilding
    http://www.racingfr.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=48320
  7. Leo Burton

    Leo Burton Active Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    That's more like it! Thanks very much @RacingMat.

    400Euros is a great price for 2 DOF!!
    They also do a 3DOF version

    Will have to thoroughly pour over that thread and see any builds emerge from it. Google Translate here we go!

    What do you think of the build and equipment?

    COPIED AND PASTED FROM GOOGLE TRANSLATE

    Hello everyone!

    I left fuiter some information there like what I will have the opportunity to provide kits for those who want to engage in the design of a simulator-based DC motors.

    It is becoming a reality!

    We (because I am not alone, I helped Willaupuis because very often we're working together on designs and ideas for simulators) have worked on a first kit model is based on branded products with which we have the used to work.You will also be offered the option of a gimbal.
    We are also working on the possibility to provide you with a cheaper kit, however to get to further reduce the price, we should replace branded products such as the Arduino board and sabertooth by Chinese copies (but we still have to confirm the functioning).

    The basic kit will be sold € 374 and the kit with the universal will to 399 €. The shipping costs are included and are the same for all European countries!Payments will be made only by bank transfer.

    Here is the current list of equipment that will be proposed (possible changes):
    2 Smolka engines
    1 Sabertooth 2x25
    1 24V 20A power
    2 10k potentiometer without mechanical stop (which are better than Bourns at Conrad)
    4 female ball tip
    1 Arduino UNO R3 (a real one)
    1 shielded USB 2.0 cable 2.5m
    1 cable 1.5m sector
    1 gear wheel module 1 50 teeth
    1 Module 1 sprocket 30 teeth
    2 connecting cables between the Arduino and Sabertooth 200mm M / M
    1 8-core shielded cable (wire potentiometers)

    On the universal, it will be offered as an option for the kit because it is a piece that is hassle enough to obtain.This is a universal than we realize ourselves.It is a piece of square steel tube with a thickness of 4 mm, treated with a rust color, compound 4 M10 ball caps to ensure the movement of rotation, locking nuts and round bolts A photo showing the gimbal is coming soon.

    If you take all these separate elements on the various proposed sites, we calculated the total price (including postage) between € 410-420.
    It is obvious that we will offer a discount to it (we do our best to negotiate prices with suppliers, however, there are products we fail to get results as engines smolka priced just increased), and given the time we have certain suppliers soon started today to source to ensure a minimum stock to ensure fast delivery at launch.
    The advantage of this kit is to provide all the necessary parts at once, faster, have all tested (by ourselves) and more cheaper!
    Our goal for us, is to make it much easier, faster and cheaper access to the design of a simulator.
    Delivery will be ensured by MondialRelay have great prices for Europe.
    It is clear that we are not a store and we will not sell the parts separately from their kit!

    We believe we can offer you the first kit for the second week of November, that date is to be confirmed after receiving and controlling our orders.
    We quickly will keep the kit of the sale price and the gimbal.
    If you are interested (and pressed), it will be possible to pre-book a kit to be delivered first.

    If you have any questions, please email simukit@gmail.com or here on the forum!



    http://translate.googleusercontent....kJrhjPWoblgrF9ds7RSKSAWnsMzit0Ww#entry1537410
  8. AceOfSpies

    AceOfSpies Living the Dream!

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK, Motion platform
    This seems to be heading in the right direction, but you have to remember that these are all the parts that go on the frame that still has to be built. Still, its a good start!

    Mike :thumbs
  9. bsft

    bsft

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    $15 f or 10 mins, rfactor and mods playing
  10. shannonb1

    shannonb1 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, AC motor, Arduino, JRK, 4DOF
    What about a DIY kit? A kit where we have all of the same motors, Pots, Pot arms that connect to the motor, coupling rings,motor arms, power supplies.....with the money we could buy in bulk.....I would support from the US side if needed or I can just drop my ideas here.

    The frame could be designed as a bring your own materials....we could keep the cost down by providing a plan for a wood rig, an 80/20 rig and perhaps a steel rig. Mounting points could be the same and with this we could have a great list of profiles designed for the Kit we create?

    thoughts?

    JRK over 10 orderd you knock off 20$ a piece right there and the same would go for other bulk orders.
  11. Leo Burton

    Leo Burton Active Member

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    That is what Racingmat posted a link for. It seems perfect my low tech abilities. All wood, no welding or steel. A DIY kit for 400euros. See this link as well.

    http://translate.googleusercontent....kJrhjPWoblgrF9ds7RSKSAWnsMzit0Ww#entry1537410
  12. shannonb1

    shannonb1 Well-Known Member

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  13. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    If someone does make a simulator kit to sell here don’t forget to add in $99 for the cost of Simtools with each kit sold. At least that is my understanding of what I was told I would need to do when I asked about providing components in a "kit" where the purchasers would still build the frame for themselves. There aren’t any details posted about it I’m aware of but it appears at some point “kit” usage turns a DIY project into a commercial one from the Simtools developer’s point of view. I guess if you don’t have to struggle and go thru a lot of grief in order to get your rig up and running, then it is not considered DIY anymore and therefore requires payment! Or maybe I just got the wrong impression since part of this sites name is still DIY Motion Simulator Kits!
  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    An interesting point @BlazinH and a difficult one to apply or enforce in the way you have outlined it. The reason is that there a number of motion simulation software solutions and a 'kit' could cater to any of them and leave the choice of which to the consumer. If you wanted to bundle software with the kit then yes a licence fee could and should apply.
  15. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Even if you don’t bundle Simtools with your “kit” technically the license fee still applies if the user decides to use Simtools on their simulator using your kit. Enforcement of this is another issue. Actually, I am still waiting to see a purchase link for a commercial license for Simtools like provided on the Xsim3 site. So right now if you want to be completely on the up and up using Simtools you have no choice but to bundle it after contacting and making payment to the team!
  16. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Different countries have different laws. I am in Australia where things like 3rd party leverage laws exist. That means things like a car dealer can't link warranty to servicing in the sale of a car, and there is no way a bare bones computer kit could charge a licencing fee for operating system software, unless that software was included as part of the kit. Same thing would apply to a motion sim kit.
  17. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Of course you can’t legally charge a licensing fee for software that you aren’t supplying unless you have some kind of agreement with the licensor or someone else who will be supplying it. Who referred to anything like that? And you can’t be forced by another to bundle their product with yours either just because their product will work with yours! All I am saying is if you want to stay in good graces with the Simtools team, and if they require a commercial license with their product when used with yours, and if your customers are unable to purchase a commercial license for themselves, then you will bundle it or be excommunicated from this site more than likely!:think
  18. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I am just trying to tease out the issue, not argue, as I think there are real pending challenges if the commercial sim market grows, particularly around consumer rigs.

    So, a practical example would be that a user comes here with a rig purchased as a kit from SimExperience. Are you suggesting then that somehow that user would be banned if SimExperience did not have a license agreement with SimTools, or that an owner of the SimExperience rig should pay a commercial license to use SimTools?

    Going back to my earlier comments in this thread I pointed out what I consider may be challenges if owners of commercial rigs drift to SimTools and the possibility of this community being used as defacto support mechanism for such a scenario: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/where-are-all-the-kickstarter-campaigns.6283/#post-69850
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
  19. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    While I’m not part of the simtools team, a simxperience rig is a commercial product, not DIY. Therefore a commercial license is technically the correct one. If the team chooses not to equally enforce their licensing though that is their business I guess.

    No, I’m not suggesting that a user should be banned because simxperience doesn’t have a license agreement with simtools. I’m suggesting he could be for not purchasing the correct license himself though if using simtools with a simxperience rig. But again, there is no link yet for them to do so even voluntarily.

    And if people with commercial rigs decide to drift to simtools, it seems perfectly fair to me to require they get a commercial license. The whole point is that if you can afford to buy a commercial product, then you can afford to pay a little for simtools also and somewhat reward the team for all their hard work and dedication to supporting it for all of us!
  20. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    It is a nuanced example, hence why I am teasing it out, as it brings the very points you have made to the fore.

    The current SimTool Licencing states that SimTools is free for private use and what constitutes 'commercial' use is not defined: http://www.xsimulator.net/community...icence-covering-both-simtools-and-plugins.28/

    I am no lawyer but 'private use' generally means private and domestic use on or off domestic premises. Hence, if someone buys a SimExperience kit and chooses to use it with SimTools for private use then under the current licence I would suspect SimTools would have to be free, given its current licencing wording is in no way linked to DIY or any other type of rig.

    It is up to the SimTools team to decide what licence arrangement applies. I am just trying to allude to the fact that I suspect in its current form there is nothing that I can see precluding someone from manufacturing and selling a motion simulation kit on the basis that it could be used with a variety of motion simulation software, including but not limited to SimTools, Xsim or whatever, much as a bare-bones PC manufacturer would do. The onus would then be on the SimTools team to argue the case and on the current licence wording I think that would be very hard, even though the meaning of 'commercial use' can extend to indirectly profiting from something.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015