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What the ideal motion system for a racing sim.

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by f1iceman, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. f1iceman

    f1iceman Why So Serious ? ( The Joker )

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    Just asking what the best way would be to get the right feel sim for just use in racing not to cater for flight aswell.
    Where would you pivot and would you move the whole unit or just seat .... ect.
    say a low,mid,high end versions.
    say its for upgrades from 2dof.

    cheers just planning for future . :)
  2. Blame73

    Blame73 Yet it moves!

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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't know that there is or ever will be a consensus, as it depends a lot on the individual.

    Many hard core sim racers swear by a seat shaker design, and many commercial rigs follow that path. Others prefer a full frame. Either way traction loss is often considered as furthering immersion for both designs. After implementing heave I would have to say that it also brings a whole new dimension to how you experience the sim.
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  4. Blame73

    Blame73 Yet it moves!

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    I only used my own 2DOF seat mover for racing games, and it feels good. It could be even better with good motors (now I'm on wiper motors). With traction loss and maybe heave I think I couldn't ask for any better.
    It then could depend on costs and dimensions

    EDIT:
    so let's say:
    • 2DOF wipers
    • 2DOF better motors
    • 2DOF + traction loss
    • 3DOF (2DOF + traction loss & heave)
    • 4, 5, 6...
    Of course it also depends on materials you use and their quality (wood, aluminium, kryptonite, ... hall effect pots, ...)
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  5. bsft

    bsft

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    I will add something to this later
  6. bsft

    bsft

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    @f1iceman , heres some info
    Heres what I came up with, didnt record lap times. No frame made made me faster or slower, so times were about the same.


    Comparisons between simulators. Other people will of course differ with this comparison, so please add your thoughts.


    First things to consider, angle of actual swing of the frames and the profile written. Also, its a brain trick.

    If you want a big swinging frame, go hard, the biggest swing I have had is 14 deg total, but others have frames up to 25 deg. And thats for race, not just flight.

    Both frames use same motors and JRK control boards


    Seat mover with shoulder mounted motors.

    Generally, a seat mover can give more precise motion detail as it has less over all weight to move than a full frame. However, too much movement can make it hard to hang onto the wheel or mash the juice pedal. And yes, the wheel and pedals are stationary, so proper placement to allow you being pulled away and pushed around has to be taken into consideration. But as said, it does give you the feeling of being moved around in a seat in a vehicle, even with a race seat to hold you in more. You tend to shift your body around to compensate for movement and also what your brain thinks you are moving like. You can still feel pitch and roll of track, but maybe a bit less as legs are still.

    Some SCN seat movers on videos have HEAPS of throw. It might look like fun, but can be too much and eventually make it tiring to drive the game.

    As mine is DIY and has 70mm travel of motor lever and at 600mm from the pivot , total angle is 6.5 degrees. Not much, but then again, too much may make it too hard. Other people will of course differ with this comparison.

    I had a seat mover of 12.5 degrees at one stage, so with a good profile, it was nice, but a harsh profile and WHOA! Fun but hard to hang on.


    Full frame with motors mounted near feet

    Full frames allow you , wheel and pedals to move with you. You dont really get sensation of being pulled, pushed around from pedals and wheels. Obviously not as much as a seat mover, but still there. You tend to feel a bit more of the motion of roll and pitch , when your whole body is getting moved around, I find.

    Seat mover can lose this a bit, but not really much.

    Motors mounted at feet on the frame in question, may take away some of the finer vibration and motion that shoulder mount gives, but then again, shoulder mounting motors would return that finer detail due to higher leveage point. It may lessen a bit due to the fact that a full frame requires a bit more power to move. But hey, just change the profile and increase the motor power a bit more.

    Although, I must say, once again, a good profile can give the same sensation in motion, be it from a different spot. Feet or knees instead of shoulders.

    Full frame is about 8 deg total swing. May not sound like much considering 4 deg from centre, but again, throw a decent profile in it and you feel like you are moving a lot more.


    Summary

    After a while I get the same sort of feeling from both my frames, even though they are different in design.

    In your choice of motion sim build, It will come down to watching videos of other frames, opportunity to play on sims when they are around to do so. Taking a look at pics, seeing what takes your fancy. Heck, even a seat mover can be converted to full frame later, add the extra bit, move pivot, and off you go. 2 seat movers I have sold, the owners have since converted them to full frames, their choice of course. They enjoy both frames they tell me.

    I have played on dbox, and scn simulators and the motion is set tame. Although others whom have such rigs wind it up and get great results. Mind you, I dont have that sort of money to get one.

    I have been through 14 different 2DOF designs, starting with joyrider design with about 9-10 deg total swing with screen on it. Good fun, but I found it a bit difficult to focus on a screen moving with you. But thats just me.

    I had 2 hire sims based on the Desk Racer for a while and over 100 players though they were immersive.

    8 professional drivers have played on those simulators as well, and they admit, its not real, but the immersion of being in game is.

    Then I moved onto development of more compact designs, with motors under rear, at knees, out the side, shoulder mount, at feet. Still 2DOF. Screen static.

    So thats how I go here. Each frame design is a new learn to drive experience I find. Nothing makes me go faster I think. I am slow regardless.

    I may have missed something and please add your thoughts as well. Its always good to compare notes.
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  7. f1iceman

    f1iceman Why So Serious ? ( The Joker )

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    Blame 73 thank you for that link , been looking for the best page on here and it hiding up top next to member as tab but to me that just looked like joining type link for memebership faq like i would find as rubbish blaa blaa membership stuff so did'nt even bother clicking.

    Can that not be placed on the main page aswell as an important thread.

    Cheers
  8. f1iceman

    f1iceman Why So Serious ? ( The Joker )

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    bsft mow thats what you call a reply.

    i'm just trying to give people a chance in this thread to give there experience of where they have got and if they changed or upgraded and did'nt like it so moved back to what they thought best not liking what they changed so it can be taken on board.

    I've been in quite afew sims now and was getting every feeling there can be and what was confusing the whole thing of my thoughts, i dont rate the platform movers like the D%&% as they just felt like nothing at all.
    now the full f1 pro sim is just amazing and i can not fault it tbh and has to be the most imersive sim but runs on 6dof (the i was in)which i had ago in.
    I had ago in the full simexperience rig with all the dangly bits and Gseat and well there was so much going on feeling wise i could hardly drive the car but was amazing but as so much going on was it just because it was at a show and i could'nt take things in i don't know.
    The seat mover is really good as forces are very good ( I like braking alot and excellerating :) ) but i think its gets people in a twist via seat moving and does not in a real car, But if you drive a car without belts on, you would move the same so feeling is good, so people change thinking that is wrong as visually its wrong but not real but infact as real as it can be set up right.
    I really want to know others reactions to what there route has been and if they have made a sim mistake and had to change it back.

    be nice to hear from lots and build a picture for myself of what is going on out there.

    I posted as i can find my posts easyer atm :)
    Sorry if im a pain with posts and others have done the same before.
  9. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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  10. bsft

    bsft

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    @f1iceman , please take note of the driver in the bottom right hand corner of the video.
    a seat mover is for attempting to replicate that

    Also remember, a simulator is a toy for improving gameplay, its an immersion trick. Granted you may not get the same motion, but if you are going to build a motion sim, and use it, you may find it difficult to go back to static wheel and pedals. It adds to enjoyment of gameplay. 100's of people can verify that when I had my 2 hire sims
    dual sims.jpg
    Ive outlined my experience in the post above with the comparison.
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  11. f1iceman

    f1iceman Why So Serious ? ( The Joker )

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    bsft
    Nice rig there :)
    I have an mx5 track car and i get similare feelings on seat movers.
    And thats why i don't think platform is the right way to go as the ones ive been on are not fun or imersive to me you need force even strapped in and bolted down the seat is moving take his belts off and he will fly around the same way as us sat in a sim seat, now add an automatic adjustment for the wheel to move seperate to the seat and controlled only by the seat moving and mirroring the info to the wheel stand i think that would limit the problem from wheel and seat in a sim but not 100% but it could give it a real feel as force on the driver should be the same.
    But the platforms where it seems to be the standard at all comercial places ive been is not really good when i go on them so thats where i see the difference is with what you have there for yours, it becomes alive and then becomes a ride to which becomes a package and theres always a never ending goal.
    So many varibles its hard to pick away unless you try them.
    One of my favorite bits i braking and accelerating from the force and feel you get only issue for me is the thrust and arms bending to the wheel but solve that it right how the seat moves.
    The forces make the game i think a ride.
    This is my understanding of theres no right or wrong as like you say its a game at the end of the day and a clever way to cause your brain to go nuts in the imersion thats possible with the clever people putting a whole new level with the coding.
    I think the feel then is brought in by the wheel and transducers and bring it alive with senses of the car on track.
    would i be thinking in the right way.
    Ya gota love it.
  12. f1iceman

    f1iceman Why So Serious ? ( The Joker )

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    also the moving monitor, is that right as most games ive seen the car moves on the screen graphics thus a link to the movement of yourself from the in car view, tbh ive not done many games as yet from pc so i guess you can make the setting for what you want.
    im still not sure on the traction loss tho, but i do like the heave.
    I am trying to get the oculus rift at this min to have an idea where thats going and if i will like it.
    I should raelly make a project on here see how it goes with what i build i guess.
  13. bsft

    bsft

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    In a car, your eyes generally stay on a fixed point on the horizon, hence screen static is suggested.
    But as you say, everyone is different
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  14. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    I agree 100% with it being hard going back once you have tried motion.

    I have Dbox with the 1.5" 2DOF set up.

    Forgot to set it up (turn it on) when playing Dirt 3 once, had the Butkicker working though and something felt very wrong, was about 30 seconds into the game before I stopped it, as it certainly did not feel right, it was then I realised the motion wasn't on...
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  15. Hobbs77

    Hobbs77 Active Member

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    For me I went with the scn5 100 2dof and I couldn't be happier. It just feels right to me although I had to turn the motion down to more of what the cars body roll would be instead of trying to reproduce the cars g-forces. After awhile it wasn't much fun being thrown all over the place. But that's just me. Were all different with different expectations. Have fun!
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