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VR Motion Cancellation - Time to test!

Discussion in 'VR Headsets and Sim Gaming - Virtual Reality' started by noorbeast, May 6, 2017.

  1. J-1775

    J-1775 Aviator

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    There is a dedicated thread in the Pimax forums.
    For easyness I copy from my post there;):
    "For all that are interested: It’s VERY easy (and very crude), but it seems to work as it should. Since my motion rig hasn’t arrived yet, my test setup was like this: I chose controller respectivly “puck” in the PiTool's dropdown, attached it firmly to my Pimax 5K+ and from then on the picture was glued to the headset - all six DoF were, well, what the name says: compensated!
    It’s (yet?) crude compared to the “OpenVR-InputEmulator” as there is no way of manipulating an “offset” to your needs, neither in time nor in space. Therefore you must attach the controller or tracker near your head, best place is probably right behind your headrest.
    I don’t think it will be immune against the problems with high frequency vibrations (e.g. from buttkicker) that many users of OVRIE report - but hopefully I’m proven wrong…"

    ChilliPepper, you see, if you have a Pimax you can give a try immediately. Looking forward to a report from someone with a rig!
    • Like Like x 1
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  2. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    Hey guys, I've got a bit of new information.

    I have discovered that the Knuckles (Valve Index) controller tracking is far, far more robust than my Vive Trackers (version 1) and Vive Wands (Version 1). This is using Version 1 lighthouses, I do not have access to v2 lighthouses, trackers, or wands to test.

    The Index controller does not wobble or lose tracking due to vibration under the same exact conditions as the others, and does not lose tracking or wobble due to close proximity to semi reflective surfaces (not talking about mirrors here) when the others do under the exact same conditions. I've had them side by side in several scenarios, then swapped them and tested again and while the Tracker (v1) and Wand (v1) either wobble all over the place or disappear completely the Valve Index controller sits there 100% rock steady.

    Please note: I have not yet tested them in a "real" scenario properly mounted to the motion sim with shakers and motion working, this information is purely about their performance directly relative to the V1 Vive equipment and not meant to imply that they are a complete fix for the tactile transducer problem. Once I test them for several days in actual live use while properly mounted I will post again and tell you how that went. Unfortunately that test probably will not happen for at least a week due to my being very busy with RL and another project.

    I'd be very, very interested to test side by side against the version 2 Wand and Tracker. I would even be willing to sell my v1 Trackers and put V.2 trackers on the credit card if they work as well as the Knuckles. I think I might order one, and simply return it if the tracking does not prove to be reliable. My v.1 Trackers really kinda suck which is really irritating because I bought three of the damned things!

    Now I just have to come up with a really good and solid quick release way to mount my one of my Knuckles to the sim seat.

    Update: Just ordered a 2.0 Tracker to test. Will report back when I have results.

    Update 2: Completely unexpected life changing development, I have just had a little surprise and acquired a 3D printer! Hopefully I'll be able to make a nice quick release Knuckles mount for the seat once I learn Fusion 360 a bit. =D
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  3. Jorant

    Jorant Member

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    So guys, let's be honest. How good is this motion cancelation really? I've done it with wmr and a controller, aaaaaand.... it sucked. Too jarring/bouncy/inaccurate. Silent chill also seems to be having issues a bit. So my question is, us anybody having any real success with this, and if so, via what method? It would seem vive would be best?
  4. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    @Jorant Index controllers appear to be best so far.

    As long as I don't use my bass shakers I get very very good results with this motion cancellation Using a Vive Wand. It's not perfect, but it's really good. Vive Tracker worked too, but it was not as good as the Vive Wand and the Knuckles seems to trump them all. =)

    WMR controllers seem to be one of the worse tracked controllers to use. Index "Knuckles" appear to be best but so far I'm the only who has tested it side by side with the Vive Wand, Vive Tracker V.1 and Vive Tracker V.2

    I'm going to make a separate post for my updated findings so nobody misses it.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  5. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    OK everyone, results time!

    The Vive Tracker v.2 came today so I charged it up and just got my tests done.

    Equipment: All controllers tested using two v.1 (OG Vive) lighthouses. I do not have access to v.2 lighthouses.

    I'll start with the new info:

    V.2 Vive Tracker tested vs. V.1 Vive Tracker:

    The v.2 Vive Tracker did not appear to do any better with vibration or reflections than the v.1 Vive Tracker. Anecdotally the v.2 Tracker actually appeared slightly worse than the v.1 Tracker I tested it against. This is generally irrelevant because I own three v.1 Vive Trackers and I've found the performance to be rather inconsistent between them. Some work better than others, one of my old ones is actually pretty terrible compared to the other two.

    V.1 Vive Tracker tested vs. V.1 Vive Wand and Valve Knuckles (Index) controllers:

    My Vive Wands (v.1) both seem to work better than any of my v.1 Vive Trackers. The Trackers wobble more wildly and are prone to losing tracking completely more easily than the Vive Wand. I switched to using a Wand for tracking the sim and it allowed me to use a very small amount of tactile feedback.

    The Valve Knuckles (Index) controllers seem to track much more reliably than the Vive Wands. I have not tested under "real" conditions yet with the Knuckles controller properly mounted and the transducers and motion turned on during actual gameplay, but the Knuckles usually don't wobble or disappear at all during initial testing when all the other tracked controllers are having serious issues. I was able to get the Knuckles to wobble a lot or disappear completely tonight by placing them (loose, unmounted) on the hard surface the bass shakers are attached to with 50% plus transducer power. The other controllers were totally gone by the time the Knuckles started having issues.

    I will report back once I get one of the Knuckles mounted properly and do some real flying (and eventually racing) with it. I'm very busy at the moment, so this probably will not occur for at least a week from this writing.

    Including a photo of the controllers I just tested. The second Vive Wand is hard mounted to the motion sim at present.

    tested controllers.jpg
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. rsbell

    rsbell Member

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    Waiting impatiently for more test results.

    I haven’t had a chance to try the Index with motion compensation yet, but I think I like the display from my Pimax better. If this works I may have to go back to the 5k+.
  7. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  8. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    Great link!

    I still think though that the current system works well if we could just eliminate tracking errors from vibration, and that might still be an issue as long as we are using IMU tracking. IMO the big question is can we use Lighthouse tracking for full 6DOF without the IMU. If so, the next question is; does the vibration cause the sensors to be unable to track the lasers properly.

    I find it very interesting that the tracked devices disappear completely or fly off into the distance from vibration. I want to know if that's because SteamVR doesn't know what to do about the mess of IMU data it's receiving, or if it's because the cameras can't see properly when they are shaking.

    The obvious alternative is of course to have the sensor-camera mounted on solid ground, and the reference points (IR LED's or reflectors a la TrackIR) and no IMU, pure optical tracking.

    @rsbell What are you waiting for!? I don't recall, do you not have any Lighthouse tracked controller or Tracker? If you do, zip tie it to your seat and try it out. It's a HUGE improvement that I can't live without on my sim.

    As for the HMD, you should be able to do the same while using the Pimax 5K as long as you have the lighthouse compatible controller to use..... so get testing. =)
  9. kparkin

    kparkin Member Gold Contributor

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    I find motion cancellation to work very well for me with 100 mm of travel on my actuators, but no vibration.
    I have V2 Lighthouses and Vive Tracker, with the Valve Index HMD. There is very slight movement in tracking, but really it's pretty good and not distracting.
    Early on I had wild loss of tracking, which was fixed by completely re-installing Steam and Steam VR.
    Of course anyone with a great range of movement my have a different result.
  10. James Robbie

    James Robbie Active Member

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    I'll post here instead of creating a new thread... Sorry if its better suited as a new thread.

    Is my understanding correct that you are able to use a vive controller in lieu of a dedicated vive tracker? I don't use my controllers at all, they are still in the box in their original plastic and I'm sure I read in this thread somewhere somebody said you could use the controller instead..... Please let it be true?!?!?
  11. 4apaev

    4apaev Member

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    Yes, absolutely.
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  12. James Robbie

    James Robbie Active Member

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    That is fantastic news, thank you, so stoked. Now to work out why the emulator software is crashing steamVR... One tick box at a time! Haha
  13. Jorant

    Jorant Member

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    But does it work well? Because using my wmr controller was a terrible experience? I want to buy a light box and controller, but that's a lot of money to piss away if it doesnt work very well. Anyone here using wmr with vive a vive controller as their motion cancelation system?

    Also, if I did buy these, do I NEED a vive to set it up, or is using vrinput emulator enough?
  14. James Robbie

    James Robbie Active Member

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    I haven't got to the point where I have been able to test it yet unfortunately... I am having troubles with SteamVR starting in Safe Mode since loading the Emulator software so once I get that sorted, I can test the controller as the tracker
  15. clyevo

    clyevo New Member

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    In this case, pimax might be a better option for motion compensation simply because
    1. its compatible with BOTH openvr input emulator with pitools off AND its own motion compensation algorithm
    2. pitools motion compensation will be always compatible regardless of steamvr updates (edit : ++ since openvr input emulator main purpose is not motion compensation thus developer might easily lose interest in maintaining it)
  16. rsbell

    rsbell Member

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    Funny that I bought an Index specifically because there was no motion compensation on the Pimax!
  17. clyevo

    clyevo New Member

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    correction on the no 1 in my previous post:
    the new pitool version 180 is even compatible with openvr input emulator motion compensation (with the offset working), i derived from someone saying in that forum
    https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/is-motion-compensation-working-with-pimax-yes-use-pitool-180/14634/204
  18. J-1775

    J-1775 Aviator

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    You are aware of the customized OVRIE drivers package "driver_vrinputemulator_release_hopefully.zip". Don't remember where I found it, but you'll find it! Had exactly the same problems and it solved it for me. Worth a trial.
  19. James Robbie

    James Robbie Active Member

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    https://github.com/matzman666/OpenV...ocfm7TgUk4VZ7v0-JvtQUieNzvmQ8OlD_WJfFhsXr0XOs

    Im guessing this is what you are talking about... I found this a day or two ago but havent had a chance to try it yet but good to know that there is somebody here who has proven this theory works. There is a lot of "possible" fixes so its nice to try something that somebody openly admits has fixed their like issues
  20. splendiddd

    splendiddd Active Member

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    I have the pimax 5k since this weekend with the old vive controllers and lighthouses. I use a controller behind my seat for tracking (only the back lighthouse detects it.
    I use inputvremu (or whatever its called) and pitool 1.80. It works, however its only usable for me with Elite and X-Plane, more violent games such as Dirt other racing games are not usable.

    Maybe i can find a way to better mount the controller (on a gimbal maybe) but for now i turn down the motion for less movement or turn off lighthouse tracking in pitool (loose 6dof headmovement)

    I really wish there was a way to add a gradial curved " deadzone" turn smooth out the buttkicker vibrations...