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Trying to enter in the matter..

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by AldoZ, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Hello all, I'm trying to understand the schemas about the connection between an actuator to a Pc running X-Sim. In these months i get many informations and i find some ways to easy make a moving platform using a devices like SX-3000.
    But as the life, all easy ways give less than hard ways.

    With SX-3000 (or 4000 when it will be ready) i can skip all the electronics management (really dudes.. this matter it's hard) and with a really little time i can assemble my moving platform (or just i think that! :? ) .
    But there are some negative points.. I limited to use the hardware that the SX-3000 can handle and I don't learn about the electrical schemas inside the SX-3000 box. And sure, i can't think about build a 3DOF system.

    So, i was reading the How-to drive Dyadic' SCN5 actuators with X-Sim² with the hope to understand the logic behind the use of a SCN5 actuator with X-SIM and sure WITHOUT pre configured devices like SX-3000.

    I just to make a simple question :
    You can see the image posted (extracted from the tutorial), then.., If i use a NOT INTELLIGENT actuator, without own electronics (encoder, program memory), so what i need to add to this scheme? I need something making the same work of the SCN5 electronics, right?

    If i understand something (i hope..) so i need to add to this scheme an encoder (maybe a device like the Velleman K8055D USB VM110 ??? sure something that handle the data from X-SIM) making the same work of the SCN5 inside electronics.

    Please, it's really important that i understand these concepts because i would to get over my actual situation (and my actual english...) and i would to start to really understand all the devices i need to move some actuators with X-Sim.

    Thank you in advance to all.

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  2. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    What you have on your picture is pretty much what the SX-3000 is. It has USB-RS485 converters and a power supply in one unit, you just plug in USB, Power and your actuators.

    If you want to build the actuator and it's electronics you will need:
    -Stepper driver and motor
    -Position feedback
    -Inteligent controller that receives information and controls stepper driver.
  3. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Thank you Frakk. Now i understand what the hell is inside the SX-3000.

    Ok so, the electronic of an SCN5 actuator it's just to have a rod position log and an intelligent controller that send the informations (games data) to the stepper driver of the actuator (making the rod moving).

    Ok then a position feedback + intelligent controller. This is the electronic of an SCN5.

    Are there some devices making the work of a SCN5 electronic??
    Maybe the Velleman K8055D USB VM110??
    And in finish, what is the work of an H-BRIDGE?
  4. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    H-Bridges are used for brushed DC motors. Stepper motors are totally different.

    Are there other devices? There are too many devices...

    If you are looking to build your own SCN5 electronics, first you should familiarize yourself with the very basics. :)
    Once you understand what needs to be done, you can look into specific devices.
  5. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Ok Frakk, i totally agree with you. I know i need to start and please, can you provide me a start point? What i need to study to have a decent base to start seriously to enter in the matter?

    Thank you very much for support.
  6. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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  7. Poppius

    Poppius New Member

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    Hi AldoZ! I am new here too, but I have couple of hints for you. First read the Wiki through before start asking questions, its very helpful!
    Secondly if you want to build your own system, you have to decide how to continue->

    1) Easy and expensive way. Buy SCN5 actuators. You don't need AMC/H-Bridge etc...
    2) Cheap and bit harder way. Buy 2 wiper motors. You'll need AMC/H-Bridge to control them.
    Read the Forum!

    BR, Poppius :)
  8. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Hello Poppius!.My big problem is my start level.. really low (i am inside this world from last June) and my less of knowledge of the electronic matter :blush:
    Over, my damn english don't support me at the maximum..
    I read the Tutorial guide but i notice this tutorial start whit the Implementing PID control in microcontroller when i don't know what the hell is PID and the microcontrollers are for me a misterious thing! haha :tape: just i need to start on a bit lower start point :)
    Probably the challenge for me is really big but i love to think about my own moving platform!

    From June to today I learned many things, really, thx to this forum I am pretty sure I can build something (probably ugly and slow but something!) obvious using your FIRST way to continue : Easy and expensive way with all the positive and negative issue of this way.

    I send you a private message. And for now thank you too for the support!
  9. Poppius

    Poppius New Member

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    I'll paste my answer to private message here too, because I think it might help other novices too.

    Ok. So you decided to go my cheap and bit harder way anyway... :)
    Basic NOT INTELLIGENT actuator which guys here use is simple dummy DC motor from car windshield wiper system.
    It just basically turns one way without any electronic controller. That you have to make. With instructions of course...

    So you already understood big picture of this system?
    1) X-Sim software runs on PC and gets X and Y values for our motors -> puts them in serial port
    2) AVR Motion Controller (AMC) by Tronicgr gets the values through serial port.
    3) AMC controls Dual Mosfet H-Bridge by TronicGr. Windshield wipers are connected to this H-Bridge.

    H-Bridge controls current taken from car battery, which moves these wiper motors...

    -Poppius
  10. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    We might be a better help if you answered these questions:

    -What type of simulator do you want to build?
    -Do you want to build one for fun, or do you want good performance?
    -How much time do you want to spend on electronics?
    -How much time do you want to spend educating yourself?
    -What is your total budget?
  11. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Hello Frakk, my main objective is a 3DOF system but for now i start with a 2DOF.
    A platform with all in one, the shape is similar to the blue tiger platform.

    I would just to make it and sure not just for fun. I would to make something good.
    Something a bit aggressive than the Thanos 2DOF platform.

    The electronic matter is my limit for now. But sure, i would to understand step by step all i need to understand the main connection logic using NOT INTELLIGENT motors (not just the not intelligent linear actuators). Understand what devices i need and what is the function of these devices in first.

    About the time i have to learn the matter i have all the necessary time :)

    My budget is so and so 2000 € and i already start to build the platform (think about the blue tiger platform but with the classical 2dof motors in the back instead the real blue tiger motors)
  12. Poppius

    Poppius New Member

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    Hi AldoZ! If your budget is so high, maybe you could afford to buy 2 SCN5 actuators? Then you wouldn't need to understant AMC and H-Bridge...
  13. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Hi poppius! My choice is near to buy the SCN5 actuators but...
    Look at my posted picture.

    My platform with an human on it is so and so 120kg

    Now, obvious that i need to make some calculation before start to buy the SCN5 300mm stroke, 10kg actuators but i feel true fear about this situation. 300mm stroke it's good to make some decent inclination but the radial load and the maximum 10kg force are bad enemies here...

    Sure if i had the budget to buy 2 couples of SCN5 actuators so.. all things will be much easy and in safety. But i can buy max 2 SCN5 actuators. So i have to consider the weight of the platform when it is much tilted... this weight must be retracted or pushed so... 10kg force can be ok for all that? and if YES.. can 10kg force move my platform+human at a decent speed (at least 200mm/sec)

    Then for all that i think it's a good choose to try to understand the main logic, using not only the SCN5 actuators but some other motor type too!

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  14. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi
    30cm stroke means further off balance
    further off balance means more force
    best regards
  15. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Hi adgun, please can you explain me exactly what you mean?
    30cm stroke means further off balance = over the optimized balance?

    and more force = more force needed by actuators to make the work?
  16. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    Yes, he means that the more travel you have, the more force you will need at the endpoints because it won't be as balanced as in the neutral position.

    Aldo, why don't you go with a seat mover design? IMO it is a lot more effective than having wheel/pedal/monitor moving with you and also much better suited for the SCN5's.
  17. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    :) Yes Frakk i understand your point of view.
    This evening I and a my friend was making really cool calculation about weight distribuition and endpoints force needed with my 2DOF platform project. We find a solution to the end point force needed as you can see in the posted image. The springs will help the actuator work when the platform reach the endpoint of the inclination (tilt).

    I know i am really near to a limit situation with 2 SCN5 actuators. But maybe..
    Sure in first i have to build the complete platform structure. When it will be ready i will start to many tests. Only after these tests i will understand if i will spent a lot of money to buy the SCN5 actuators. But i repeat, i understand well your point of view (have less weight to move so no monitor).
    Limit situation = interesting situation!

    :)

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  18. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    Calculating the forces are not that easy...

    The U-joint is supporting the weight of the rig and not the actuators, those springs underneath are not going to make a big difference.
    The actuators are responsible for acceleration and deceleration of the platform, inertia (speed*weight) is ~90% of the load.
    As the position/tilt changes, so will the dynamic/static forces acting on the actuators. Depending on weight, position, speed, acceleration, the forces will change constantly.

    Check these projects:
    simu-with-reduce-for-2-scn5-simxperience-t2774.html
    donald-simulator-need-tips-t2601.html
  19. AldoZ

    AldoZ Member

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    Yes Frakk i agree, these calcs needed are pretty complex. And yes, the springs help just a bit.
    The projects you provided to me are great (very interesting tricks) and tomorrow i will start to read seriously boths.

    Thank you very much dude, your help plus the other guys help it's really precious for me.