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SimCraft SC520 or SC530 - Actuators

Discussion in 'Commercial Simulators and Peripherie' started by Roadster2, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Being impressed by the look of the Virtual Grand Prix simulator video on the Simcraft web site I am looking at the possibility of building a Simcraft SC520 or SC530 (with Yaw motion). Before I investigate further does any member know what make/model of actuators Simcraft use. I assume they are standard commercial actuators rather than custom made by Simcraft ?

    As the Dyadic SCN5 and SCN6 are known to work well with X-Sim these might also be an option ?

    Also, does anyone know how the adjustments are made for (a) leg to pedal length to adjust for different user height and (b) centre of gravity adjustment, assuming differing users height and weight will need re-balancing.

    Any info appreciated
    Thanks
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    Glad to see your interest in building a full motion simulator, I'm a bit biased but wholly endorse the center of mass architecture over the comparable alternatives.

    SimCraft's actuators are customized for us and our manufacturing partnerships allow us to provide them to consumers at a cost lower than you would wind up paying for comparable strength actuators (same response speeds but over 4x stronger than SNC5). Sourcing them yourself, you would still be left with designing and buying a mounting system, communications interface electronics, hardware programing and power supply. Our complete motion systems include all this ready to go, in addition you get the rotary chassis bearing specifically designed for motion simulation.

    Can you do all this your self? Probably, it really comes down to how you want to spend your time, if saving a bit of money is worth the dozens (or hundreds) of hours to figure out how to make it work for you. With a SimCraft system you get a proven solution and top notch support if/when you need it to get you on the track sooner with a full motion simulator.

    Regardless of the route you take on your motion system, it encouraging to see more and more simracers opt for a proper simulation experience using center of mass architecture. This is the reason we provide public chassis plans as examples of how enthusiasts can build their own motion sims using the same motion more and more pro drivers are using to train.

    Michael
  4. Nima

    Nima Member Gold Contributor

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    hi michael,
    do you can use your actuators with x-sim?
  5. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Hi Michael

    Thanks for your response. I have looked at the SimCraft kits before (and drooled over them) but it was really the video of the Virtual Grand Prix simulator, based on the SimCraft, that has rekindled the interest. I thought it looked great.

    I understand what you say about the sense of using the SimCraft kit, but like many members on these forums it's simply a question of cost. Even more so in these financially troubled times. As I am situated in the UK there is also the additional carriage, Import Duty and VAT. I was hoping that I could build a chassis from your excellent plans (a big thanks for offering these free to download by the way) and then use SCN5 or SCN6 actuators with the X-Sim software to reduce the cost. From what you say it sounds as if this is a non-starter.

    Perhaps you might want to consider offering the bearings, actuators and mounting brackets as a kit, without the electronics, so that users could use the X-Sim software - then again I suppose the savings involved wouldn't be enough make it worthwhile.

    Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the lottery numbers to come up !

    For reference I would be interested to know what facilities the SC520/SC530 chassis' have to accommodate different size users. The plans available don't give any indication of possible adjustments and how easy (or difficult) these might be.

    Thanks again,
    Iain
  6. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    Ian, we are planning on selling just the rotational bearings so DIY folks can at least get some real frame mounting hardware. This would also allow a shot at 3DOF as well. Contact me and I'll get a price from production on this for you, MBoardman at SimCraft dot com and push something more formal to our site and the forum.

    The rest is pretty much a package deal, our price is still below what a consumer would pay. I feel your pain, maybe our UK presence will merit a redistribution center someday soon.

    As far as the chassis goes, it is fairly adjustable. The chassis are designed to take drop in motion upgradeable cockpits. The one from your x-sim picture looks like it could work with some mounting areas along the sides for example. Start there and compare it to the cockpit in the plans. Simply add a couple inches (or millimeters rather) to the lengths of the frames, roll and base. You can make the same type of addition to the yaw frames (for 3dof) to accommodate a wider cockpit.

    You can use one of the other motion technologies to move your frames and work on upgrading to electromechanical actuators as money and interest permit.

    The VGP tub from the video is a totally custom pit from Brazil, we are working on replicating a version to launch our motion upgradeable cockpits.

    Michael
  7. samsrcin69

    samsrcin69 New Member

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    You mean these actuators? To me it looks like three off the shelf SCN6 actuators, an off the shelf power supply, and off the shelf RS485 adapters stuffed into an alarm box from the outside of a house. X-Sim even detects them as SCN6 actuators! Tell us the specs of these actuators and how they are “customized” that make them worth thousands of dollars more than buying the SCN6’s directly from simxperience

    100_2863_(Small).JPG

    100_2855_(Small).JPG

    100_2854_(Small).JPG

    100_2852_(Small).JPG

    100_2851_(Small).JPG
  8. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    To be honest, they pretty much look like SCN6, just with bigger stepper motor.
    Perhaps Bernard could ask Mirai how much they would be for us.

    Well, I guess X-Sim compatiblity is no issue then ;P

    Regarding the bearings.
    http://cgi.ebay.de/Stehlager-Gehauseein ... 5888321520
    Not that nice, but the price is DIY friendly.

    Regards
  9. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    From the photos, they look like plain old SCN6 actuators with a bolt on 4-post mounting bracket, but not the faster 020 series, they look like the slower 100mm/sec 050 series motors.

    I only stock the 150mm SCN6-020 and 300mm SCN6-020. The 040 series only has more power at very slow speeds, so I don't think it is cost justified for simulation. The 050 series is out of the question due to the slow speeds.

    I'll invstigate other motor options that can be bolted on to the SCN6 but I really don't think that's what we're looking at here.
  10. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    Bigger motor, more torque, which is needed to move heavier masses and to compensate mass inertia forces.
    The stepper seems bigger at least.

    Regards
  11. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    I'll check it out and see what other motor options are available if this will help the community.

    I'll also obtain pics of the steppers on the 020, 040 and 050 to see what differences exist in motor size of the standard SCN6 offerings.

    For me, I prefer to find more creative ways of handling the mass and intertia than reducing my sim to the performance of slower actuators. I hope to be able to share my new project that demonstrates this in a few months when testing is complete.
  12. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Hi samsrcin69, thanks for your input and very grateful thanks for the photo's. Much appreciated.

    Thanks also to Christian (egoexpress) and Bernard (bvillersjr) for your responses. It would be terrific news if I could use SCN6 actuators with the Simcraft SC520/SC530 chassis. Simcraft offer three actuators - SC024, SC026 and SC028. Each step up offering a higher degree of Roll and Pitch. I see that Bernard's site offers SCN6 in two stroke lengths, 150mm and 300mm. I assume that these would correspond with two of the Simcraft offerings and it might be useful to know which two in order to ascertain the Roll and Pitch specifications available for each of the two SCN6 models.

    samscrcin69 - do you know which type Simcraft actuators you have and what the stroke length is ??

    Thanks to everyone for the help,

    Regards
    Iain
  13. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    Each of the Dyadic SCN6 actuators uses a different stepper motor. The motor numbers and the cooresponding actuators they are used on are as follows:

    RSA06: SCN6-020
    RSA09: SCN6-050
    RSA12: SCN6-040 & SCN6-060

    Each of these motors has different dimensions. Based on the dimensions shown, the picture above shows a 150mm SCN6 40kgf model with the standard RSA12 motor. I'll need to get some more comparitive pics before I can say for sure but I would appear to me to be a debranded SCN6-040-150.

    The one things that's for certain is that a standard SCN6 can suit the needs of Roadster. Also, please not that the speed and thrust of the more cost effective 020 series is nearly identical to the more expensive 040 series until the speed drops below 125mm/sec I personally think that a racing simulator should at least he achieving 200mm/sec to properly reproduce road surface, so the 020 series will make more sense if your sim design is optimal.

    SCN6 Motor Dimensions.jpg
  14. Nima

    Nima Member Gold Contributor

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    hi bernard,
    the diagram from the scn6 on your side say the 20 and the 40 scn6 have the same speed and
    under wight the 40 are faster.

    Attached Files:

  15. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    You are correct Nima. THe point I was making is that the SCN6-020 and SCN6 040 perform almost identically between 125mm/s and 200mm/s speeds. The 040 shows its additional strength at speeds between 0 and 125mm/s. The 040 is more expensive, so I am suggesting that for many sim builders and sim designs, that the 020 may be a better choice.
  16. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    And that is exactly what is cruicial to move bigger weights.
    Regardless the maximum speed you set in the Profiler SCN5/6 setup, the acutuators have to stop before they reverse direction, and sometimes they have to move the weight from stand. Braking and accelleration happen mostly in that low speed range.

    Compare it to pushing a car by hand. The accelleration from stand is the most arduous part, while keeping it moving once it rolls takes almost no force.

    The additional force at lower speeds represent the accelleration power from, and braking power to stand.

    Though it may be possible to compensate higher inertia forces by design, a bigger motor with higher torque shoulndt be a bad idea ;D

    Regards
  17. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    I agree. I don't think using the 040 is a bad idea, I think that using th 050 is a bad idea. I'm only suggesting that depending on the sim design, the 040 may not be needed. I'll be testing my new design with both the 020 and 040. In theory, it won't need or benefit from the slow speed kgf given by the 040, nor do I think Nimas front section will. A JoyRider style design will probably need the slow speed kgf of the 040 though.

    IMHO, it would be better to optimize the sim design when possible to use the lower cost 020 and to avoid the slow 050 whenever possible since it only achieves 100mm/s.
  18. RaceRay

    RaceRay Administrator Staff Member SimAxe Beta Tester

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    Moved to proper forum!
  19. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    Would an actuator similar to that qualify as customized? As you well know there are many options that have been tried and shared on these forums. SimCraft actuators should be considered another option based on our experience.

    As stated above, can you do all this your self? Probably, it really comes down to how you want to spend your time. The mounting bearing you list is probably the best example, could that work to build a rotational sim frame? Most likely but will it do it out of the box, no way. You still have a bunch of other parts to figure out and source and hope you did it well enough to provide the correct experience.

    Most of the top notch builders here may have the skills and desire to figure it out and want to spend the time verifying their designs. SimCraft offers a different option from the complete DIY route, including dedicated support for customers. If there is no perceived value for protecting your investment in motion hardware then don't become a customer, that's what a market is all about.
  20. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    I looked into this today. Dyadic does not offer customized actuators, nor do they offer military grade actuators. Furthermore the motor is permanantly bound to the screw at the Dyadic factory making 3rd party replacement very unlikely. You can't simply buy another motor from Dyadic and connect it. Given the great performance of the SCN6, I can't imagine why someone would try to change the motors anyway.
  21. CXCSimulations

    CXCSimulations Member

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    I have to agree with that statement (as much as it kills me to agree with a competitor - kidding! :))

    We too are in the same position. I frequently have to defend our products to the DIY crowd. Our product was simply not designed for them, but rather those who don't want to build their own. Our customers want a completely finished system with white-glove support.

    It must be worse for you guys though as you also make a product between the hardcore DIY and complete Turn-key system. Tough place to exist....