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Questions - Help - 3DOF AC Platform IT Begins -

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by cthiggin, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. AceOfSpies

    AceOfSpies Living the Dream!

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    Hi Tom, they're called "Turret" terminals.

    Mike
  2. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Thanks Mike,
    I looked up Turret Terminals and found tons of them, but they look just like what is already coming out from pot. I thought there would be a metal "clip type" terminal that you would snap onto the
    existing turret coming out of pot???? Can you safely solder your wire direct to the existing protruding turrent on pot without any internal damage???

    Have a blessed one,

    Tom
  3. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Yep! Just solder them like you would standard potentiometer terminals and you'll be good to go!

    It sounds like you have a good handle on implementing your 230vac so, even though I wouldn't use it myself, I wont try to talk you out of it. But one more word of caution for extra safety; I do recommend that you ground the upper and lower frames to each other or ground each of them separately. While it's probably not necessary it adds extra safety in the case you have a floating ground condition due to your u-joint and spline coupler. And it's cheap and easy to do too!
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  4. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hey BlazinH,
    GOOD to hear from you my friend.
    I've wired regular pots with a terminal before. Never been exposed to the "turrent terminal" and just wasn't sure I could solder without doing internal damage to the pot. BETTER safe than blowing
    50.00 for the 3.

    Yes, I will ground BOTH upper and lower frames. The bottom platform is on nitryl casters, which will isolate from the cement floor. I'm going to put each of the wheels in a "metal cup" for stability
    but the frame still won't be grounded due to the wheel compound.

    Most economical way for AC is 230V - Single Phase to 3 Phase motors, by way of inverter. 230V Single phase motors are much more expensive and almost double the amperage draw over 3 phase.
    I will come off of my "common" on my bus bar that will be in my "electronics box"....it runs straight to a breaker in my master elec. panel, and goes to earth ground. I will run a wire to the base frame and
    my upper frame. "Me" always wants a good ground - and I don't mean being the ground...Got you covered and thanks for asking. Taking care of each other is what it's all about.

    Thanks so much for your info and stay in touch.

    Have a blessed one BlazinH.

    Tom
  5. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Hi Tom ... I hope you feel better right now

    - I'm sorry I can't cover all the readings of the above posts at a fast rate ? ...
    - there are so many open Items needs to be clear and answered ...
    - And what do you mean by " the rascals " ? you mentioned before at different locations [to mount the rascals - to stop the rascals ] .

    and now for some of the lose ends here .
    • Emergency, Stop, Kill and Panic switches are the same just with different logo or name on it and are manually opened and closed "Human interfaced" so there must be no more than one in any machine so operation can be started/stopped at one place accurately ...
    If you intend to use one here in this simulator or any where else ... it is logically recommended to be placed to control the source of power for all MOTORS and VFD's ... and due to there low ability to handle big loads and current they can not be used alone to connect the main power ...
    That is a problem !!
    The solution is by adding an " Electrical Contactor " to them .
    1183583482.jpg
    Which is actually connects/disconnects the loads from the mains ... So one Emergency Switch plus one Electrical Contactor ... although it looks like a difficult/expensive thing to use which is not ... IT IS the best cheapest solution ... the next step is to know ...​
      • How to connect it ? What are all these terminals ?
      • How to choose what kind you need ?
    YouTube search results for " Electrical Contactors ".



    • limit switches are automatic mechanically engaged [physically touching ] moving mechanisms to perform certain action needed ... like the Subway train doors for example must be all closed to enable the motors "the driver never needs to manually do that "... If you want to see someone that used them on his simulator actuator ... here is my simulator actuator ... pause at second 0:05 and 0:08 for the up and down limit switches ... and the blue pot is the 10 turns 10K feed back resistor mounted on a plastic support sheet ... you can use that idea If you still have nothing .


    Limit Switches are here connected to the direction signal 24V coming from the motion controller card and going to the VFD's ... small limit switches for the small operating voltage ... So if the motor OFF the working area accidentally by the weight inertia or any error the switch reverses the motor direction ...
    In the next video you will find something new that will inspire you positioning your limit switches around tha crank arm ...​


    • One thing further I want to check for ... is this male shaft should be welded to the back of this square plate and you should have the female shaft welded on the center plate instead like the Example ?
    Spline - U-Joint Painted - 022814.JPG Spring Example 3.jpg
    • Useful Useful x 1
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  6. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    about the Turret Terminals ... YouTube search results for " soldering the Turret Terminals"

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    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  7. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    PIPE & SPLINE - Spring Template Final 030214.jpg Hi friend Speedy,
    I will get back to answering your informative thread tonight. Still recovering from the ol' pneumonia and must go rest so I can think straight tonight.

    FYI - in US, when we refer to "rascal", it normally means it's an area or thing that gives us additional thought, or frustration etc. When "I" stated "rascal", it was referring to
    trying to figure out placement for stop switches being mounted at crank-arm....Hope this makes sense???

    Yes, the spline shaft in the photo is already welded to top plate - my spline "collar" will be welded to a 4" diameter pipe to act as a receptacle for spline shaft - it will be bolted to base frame. Compression
    spring sandwiched in between.

    Will post tonight about the "kill switch" & "electrical contactor"...

    Thanks sir for taking care of me...I highly appreciate it.

    Tom
  8. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hi Speedy,
    Know you're probably sleeping at this time - 7:30 pm here for me.
    I've watched the videos on Contactors as well as the linear accutators - AND the soldering of turrent contacts.........Thanks so much - appreciated and enjoyed all of them

    OK - "humor" me here and tell me if I understand how to use a Kill Switch on top of platform - (at this time, I'm going to assume I am "NOT" going to use limit switches)

    1. Kill Switch on top of Platform, next to occupant.
    2. Contactor in my "electronics box" - 4 pole?? Single phase 230V - (Red/Black/White/Green)
    My "mains" power and 4 wires coming INTO electronics box, FIRST, goes to 1 side of Contactor
    The other side of Contactor - the 4 Wires go to my Bus Terminals (4 total) and from there I can wire my boards, power the VFD's, etc.
    3. Should I have an "out of control" platform, for whatever reason, I hit the "Kill Switch", it DE-energizes the Contactor, killing all power coming in - Platform stops.

    Is this "me theory" on track?

    Thanks for your patience and ALL of your help and interest Speedy. Just don't get frustrated with me - you're too much of a friend and so knowledgeable to help all.

    Have a most blessed one and I'll watch for your reply and continued education.

    Tom

    PS - I'm ordering my Custom Spring in the morning - Constant Pitch, Closed and Ground End, 1/2 to 1/3 Compression at bottom of travel. And I'll have them to Pre-Stress before shipping
    out. Total top platform weight - 425 lbs.
  9. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    No I'm not sleeping :grin... OK buddy "rascals" in Men language means the Fxx thing that keeps you thinking hard I got the meaning ...

    and you're definitely on track but to the other side ... not using a limit switch may cause you a full rotation for the POWERFUL crank arm without knowing what will happen then ? ... even if the Feed back hall effect pots will not be damaged ... are you sure nothing else will be in there way ? will the top platform with you sitting in it stand this rotation ?
    I don't know ... but the option is here and could be added in the future if needed .

    I still didn't come up with something that enables you to use one kill switch with 3 VFD's except for the power line which as you know will take 2seconds for a full stop ... as I still don't know till now the controllers type that you will use and the VFD types ...

    To use a kill switch for the power line of the VFD's ...
    mains power cable goes in the electronic box to this 40A main power Circuit Breaker switch ...
    10-07052012-095894L.gif


    then you need to hookup an extension outlet to connect computer and boards ... you don't need to shut down the computer instantly with an E-switch ...
    images.jpg



    Then you just need a " two pole/220v coil contactor " for the 2 power lines ... connect additional two wires from the CB switch to the contactor IN side ...
    mini-two-pole-contactor-500x500.jpg



    the Kill switch will be connected " in serial with the contactor side coil terminals " ... to the 220v IN contactor side coming from the main CB switch ...
    there are two types of contact points that comes with the kill switch only one should be used in connection ...
    when the button is pressed " the green colored contact point will be closed " & " the red colored contact point will be opened " ... I guess you want to press it to stop/disconnect the power then the RED contact point is what you'll use ... to cut the power from the Contactor coil then disconnects the VFD's from the main .

    index.jpg miGgSpJnAOJVBlQQ8JoDMlw.jpg



    the two lines of the OUT contactor side will go to bus terminal ... Use a terminal connector like this here for the VFD's to share the E-Stop controlled power source ... just bridge each 4 together to give you the required extension terminals needed ...
    SB-8TC-open.jpg cluster0006.jpg



    then each VFD will provide a separate " 4 wires / 3phase cable " for each motor ... note that motors internal coils will be connected as delta ...
    index.jpg Motor_DeltaStar_en.jpg


    use ducts to keep your work organized as much as possible ... design your space to leave room for ventilating the VFD's Fans as recommended in there manual ...
    CE_UL_PVC_Insulated_wiring_ducts.jpg WD_cab.jpg
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    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  10. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hello friend Speedy,
    Gee Whiz - what a wonderful explanation - (I wish I had 1% of your electronics knowledge - would sure make it much easier for me)

    After reading your overview, which I do "comprehend", but not 100% sure on wiring -

    From what I understand - I hit the kill switch on top platform, VFD's are stopped, within 2 seconds - AFTER I trouble shoot problem / or / want to restart sim, I pull the Kill Switch Button, UP, to continue power to the VFD's??

    I already have the breaker in my mains panel - so, I'm fine there.

    What I would like to propose to you and see if you'll find it acceptable?

    1. At this point, I'm still somewhat 'away' from being ready for the contactor.
    2. When I get spring installed, upper platform, and motor placement, I can see "how" I may implement the "limit switches"....Unknown at this point.
    3. Let's talk controller board/boards - I have been in contact with @yobuddy - and I am at the understanding that @speedy (my friend here) may be in development of a "board" that will
    accommodate my 3DOF on one.....Hope so - and I am willing to "wait" for it - versus using 2 SimAx boards, isolators, etc.

    4. After the sim controller boards & hardware are built and in my "electronics box", I would ask your help in wiring the Kill Switch. I will give you photos and a drawing of my controller board with a mock placement
    of Contactor and Kill Switch - and, if you will, draw the wiring positions for me....

    I have printed this thread out - and saved it -

    What I am going to "stop doing" is "overthinking" and getting too far ahead of the game. I have regrouped and will follow my build in a "logical and systematic way". I have so many questions

    that I let my perfectionist ways just let me get too far ahead of myself as well as all of you. One step at a time, in logical order!

    THANK you Speedy and ALL who have helped immeasurably.

    Have a most blessed ones my friends,

    Tom
  11. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Stop that " this is not Space Science " ... mmm ... it's just like wiring a lamp in the bedroom Lampshades ... But thank you my humor friend ...
    The same feelings for me (I wish I had 1% of your welding knowledge ) too ... :thumbs
    And I know I can't have it all in one place > My memory < simply wont fit .
    It is not wise to put all the Eggs in one basket ...:grin

    You some how pointed me that wiring method could be important note to put in the VFD's Thread ... other members might feel uncomfortable with the wiring's too ... Allow me please to put it there with more detail's and wiring schismatics so we are not spamming the forum with the same post again .

    I'm sorry if I made you over-thinking of future steps ... but I like to put the high headlights ON when I'm driving in the pitch dark roads ... rather than slowing down ... that might scare the side passenger a little ... Speedy I guess ;)

    "Stepping on Gas again" & "keeping your heart rate up " ... Now since you'll have to use " SimAxe controller multiple options " /Hall effect feed back sensor /50% knowledge in DIY electronics ;) ... SimAxe will be your best choice ... No worries about the extra Add On card to be made for AC motors .

    My controller will be a 2 DOF, USB interface for each board like SimAxe / Arduino ... But DIY made from scratch by the user like etching boards /components assembling/FW flashing ... will take you more DIY steps to have it ready to go ... SimAxe/Arduino are 80% closer to the finish line or more ... But my board is equal to them in final results/PID control or more ... ( it is basically depends on the Revolution firmware and software made by Prilad and his magnificent GUI management program ) ... All credits goes to hem in making it worth to have .

    Unless Our Nuclear Mind Friend @prilad witch ( I wish I had 1% of his micro controller Knowledge ) comes up with some new FW to make it 4DOF or 6DOF in one controller board as it will convert this forums into the Dream land for Simmers :) ... that would give the story another New Look ... As I truly wish .

    OK let's go back to our late work with lazy me ... and see you soon for more action .:popcorn
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  12. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hey Speedy,
    You're one "funny" dude as we call it here in USA. Love your humor and positive attitude.
    FYI just for you..... all my life, as a kid or now at 66 years - I've ALWAYS been able to see a finished project and enjoying it BEFORE it's even started....as ex. - building a racing engine when I was 23 -
    I could already see it going down the dragstrip just hauling "ass" as we call it here. Well - the sim project has been this way. Two years ago I could see the end project, and myself and grandson just
    having a blast - this is reason for my over reaction and going off the "boards" at time..........
    BUT, what I have finally learned, there is an awful LOT of things that have to be done, and done CORRECTLY, or you wind up with a failure. I knew the electronics were going to be a weak point, but
    you all have me covered......I've just learned so very very much, and most of it has saved me from a failed platform build.

    I'll watch for your VFD thread for updates.

    Thanks so much my friend for being so helpful, and most of all understanding.

    Have a blessed one,

    Tom

    PS - I call myself an (American) Indian Electrician.....Two Wire, Hook'em UP, Three Wire, Screw'em UP.
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  13. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    see this ... miss placement of front motors / uneven arms distances ... makes an unwanted platform sway lift and right:(

    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  14. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Hi Guy's,
    You would still need to DIY the SimAxe.
    It requires much of the same steps as speedys setup would.
    yobuddy
  15. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    With the Ard if you use it, at the price of them its better to use 2 of them to get more DOF. Than to use a code that moves more than 2 as the proper calcs needed to do 2Dof test the limits of the 8bit processor. The others dont use a proper PID calc yet.
    The SimAxe does have good potential to control the slower motor, still trying to get it to tune my Big DC motors, but at 180 rpm its a bit tricky.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hello eaorobbie,
    Couple of weeks ago I sent a pm to @yobuddy, informing him that I was getting close to needing my electronics. He wanted me to send him a pic of layout when I get my motors mounted etc.
    FYI - yobuddy is the one who built a fire and got me finally started building my sim - He was kind enough to send me a component diagram and the logical wiring for my AC Platform & VFD use.
    He did show 2 ea SimAx Boards, Opto-Iso's, etc. At that time, he was very confident the SimAx would or could work fine with my AC Setup.

    With electronics, being my weakest point in my build, I "understand" in your reply that the Ard is the better way (or another way) to go "as I will have to use code and more involvement than with the SimAx???

    Please, I'm not making any "right or wrong" instances here at all. "Me" the dummy - I just want to make sure that I can follow you folks wiring diagram and components - and IF done correctly, then I'm ready to go with the SimTools Software??? HOME FREE!

    In summary, I just want to do the BEST, Right, "most minimal involvement" on my electronics....this was and has been my reservations for the past three years. I could build it, but could I make it work electronically??

    Please don't leave me hangin' here...we are all a team.

    Thanks so much and have a blessed one.a

    Tom
  17. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hello friend Speedy,
    Thanks for the video - I know one thing for SURE, I would NOT get on that platform, PERIOD.
    That's just scary.

    Stay in touch and have a blessed one.

    Tom
  18. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Hi again Tom. I’m pleased that others experienced with VFD’s have been giving you the needed help. Since I have no experience with them I am useless on that subject! But as far as what is, “BEST, Right, most minimal involvement” for a controller; I believe there is not an absolute answer. It all depends with whom you are having a conversation about it with! But this allows an opening for me to pose some questions to other members that I would like to know the answers to as well.

    I would like to have some more definitive answers on the pros and cons, and on the execution speeds between the Arduino Uno lets say and the PicAxe 28x2 chip when made into a complete working board like the SimAxe. Here is what we know, or I think is correct at least. If it’s not, correct me so we have accurate information to compare (@yobuddy @prilad @eaorobbie and anyone else)

    The arduino has an 8bit processor that runs at 16mhz. The simaxe has an 8bit processor also but can run up to 64mhz. The arduino has a maximum 10bit ADC and the simaxe also has a maximum 10bit ADC. The arduino operates at 5vdc and the SimAxe at 5vdc also. The simaxe can operate at a maximum baud of 76.8k (it can do a faster baud rate but it would require a clock faster than 64mhz) and the arduino can do up to 2M (as reported on this site when programmed directly in c). This comparison is not about memory size but speed so we will not consider memory size here (unless someone thinks we should). I will assume here that the arduino and simaxe have the same memory access times. I’m not sure of the ADC read times but I’m pretty sure that it is considered to be somewhat slow for both boards (I think 13us for the arduino and 16us for the simaxe). There is more that could be compared but these are the main ones I think except for one more that could be the biggest of all. The arduino runs pre-compiled code natively on its microprocessor. The simaxe however, must compile its code in real time using an interpreter on the chip.

    So, I have an opinion on which is better (faster). But I haven’t seen the definitive data to confirm by beliefs so maybe someone can provide them now. From the above comparison, at a glance by a novice, the simaxe appears to be the faster processor but the arduino has the faster baud rate. But in reality, I believe the arduino will win hands down on all fronts. The reason, the code is not pre-compiled on the simaxe. So even though the simaxe runs at four times the speed of the arduino, the simaxe must take its basic program and, in essence, make new code from it as it runs that will execute on its processor. From my understanding, some simple commands can be translated on a one to one basis, which would make those commands faster on a simaxe @ 64mhz than an arduino @ 16mhz. However, most commands and some other very complex commands will take several clock cycles in order to translate the basic code to machine code taking 4 clock cycles or many more. In these cases the arduino should be faster. So overall, I see the arduino as being faster and therefore the better of the two.

    It would be nice if someone that has a simaxe would test it with the various firmwares offered here and post what the program cycle times actually are. I have written a rudimentary and yet untested program for 2 channel PID control on the picaxe. Even though the code is mostly complete, I gave up on even testing it deciding that the picaxe would just be to slow to run it effectively. It may work okay as a 1 channel PID but I’m not sure it would be worth it for only 1 channel!

    Can any other members shed some more light on the matter? I really would like to see the simaxe perform well since I’m already proficient enough to program it and I don’t know the arduino IDE yet. But I really don’t want to waste any more time on it if the picaxe isn’t going to be up to the challenge!

    Note:The picaxe does have 1 pin that can be used as high speed serial @ 115k baud

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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  19. cthiggin

    cthiggin Active Member

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    Hi BlazinH,
    Wow - even I understood that overview and comparison...
    I am SO HAPPY that you "heavy-weights" in electronics are starting and wanting to get some definitive answers on "what is best" (of course, "at the moment")

    With this type of info to disiminate, the @eaorobbie's, @speedy's, @BlazinH's, the @bsft's, and of course our great friend @yobuddy.........PLUS all the others I have missed can
    really reduce the variables of the electronics that most of us "really need". As an end result, electronic novices such as myself - can really Buy the Best Package for our type of sim - and
    with help of diagrams, can wire it properly.

    I'm very excited about this and the future of our DIY'ers here - Nothing like a game-plan for ALL.

    Thanks so much for your time and interest, and most of all, our needs.

    Have a blessed one,
    Tom
  20. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,195
    Location:
    Alexandria , Egypt
    Balance:
    7,483Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,268 / 9 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, AC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    The Arduino is out ... since I've stated to you The benefits of SimAxe that will fulfill your needs plus isolator board is designed SimAxe compatible ...

    For more and more information ... continue the comparison ... I LLLLLLLLLLLLLOVE IT .