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question and tips from a new one

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by adgun, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi
    I'am AD from the netherlands
    Iám a mechanic with litlle electric skills
    Iám orientating for a while and read a lot off this forum
    first KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
    I take a look at some diy simulators on this forum and see that there are some safety isseus forgoten
    When you make a trapezium shaft driven simulator stay under 1500 rpm this is the max for rolled shafts
    when you make more rpm the friction rises fast because of the heat(the metals expend)this can go so far that the nut
    locks it self or snaps the shaft to increase speed work with a lever
    With a lever you can speed up a actuator to
    I like the work from electric jack
    He dit a inportent thing with his simulator and dit'nt tell about it when you chance direction with a wormgear the
    teath get a big hit and the airtires are arbsorbing this hit
    this way he increased the lifespan from his gears (without it will not last long)
    When you want to work with roller screws surplus center sells them for 10,00 dollar (took at misc.)
    but of they are anny good??????
    For better ones look at http://www.markusmechatronics.com in the shop you find 0,5Mtr 16x5 roller shaft with a rollernut
    for 65,00 euro
    Rollerscrews are the best if you want a shaft driven simulator but roller screws dont lock and the rollers in the nut
    make noice they are loud with 3000rpm
    if you want to make a shaft driven sim.and nont now how strong the motor must be use this formula
    F = E x M x 2 xpi :H F =force in newton M = torque from motor H=hub from shaft at one turn in meters
    E = efficiency trap. screw =50% =0,5 rollerscrew = 90% =0,9
    example Trap.shaft 12x3 motor 0,8 NM
    H = 0,003 E = 0,5 M =0,8 F=0,5x0,8x2x3,14159:0,003=837,5N =85kg with a rollerscrew (0,9)=153kg leneal force
    you see you dont need much for a simforceGt type
    2 NOTES 1.trapscrews and wormgears only full lock if the teath angle is less than 3grades
    2.I have seen a good layout on this forum for a simforceGt frame with normal aluminium tubes
    you can make it much stronger when you allsow gluw the joints use PU gluw
    two compenents PU gluw hold much more than 100kgcm2 (use gloves)
    Now my questions
    In my opinion to make a frex style simulator the best way is direct driven electronic jack style with stepper motors
    When i look at nanotec by stepper motors the st9818 series have more than doublle the force you need
    The only thing you have to do is take the wight from the motorshaft and that is easy to do with 2 bearingblocks
    put a shaft with a arm inn it line the motor up and couple them (no friction low mass slowness)this will last for ever
    I am thinking for a while now: what is wrong with it because ther is nothing wrong with the brains from the boys from this
    forum and they dont speak about it, and i can't find whats'wrong about it.
    Can some one tell me is this good or bad please a answer
    I read in this forum that if you work with steppermotors you have to program every posission will some one tell me
    how this works in big lines
    sorry for my english
    AD Guntlisbergen[*]
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    Hi AD,

    we appreciate all members who share their knowledge with us. We really need people like you with mechanical or electronical skills. So feel yourself welcome, and thanks for your hints.

    Regarding your questions. Well, most of us do not have plenty of money to make a simulator in the very best manner.
    Its more to find a good compromise between costs and quality.
    We know that we are pushing those little wiper motors hard. But you can get them for 10Euro ;)

    So our intention is not to build the very best system, but to build well working and affordable ones.

    We now that stepper motors have their pros and cons, and that there is a possibility to make a good working system with steppers for sure.
    But they are harder to get and most times more expensive.

    Our last stepper project has been a flop, and I, for myself, dont have neither the money nor the time to develop something new on the mechanical side, currently. If you do, I'd appreciate to see you developing something well working.

    For now I would recommend to use Tronicgr' DC motors interface. I do use it for myself, and I am very satisfied with it. I dont want to tell that there would be nothing to improve, but it works quite well imho.

    Regards
    Christian
  4. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    Could you make a little sketch please?
    Are you, by chance, familiar with CAD/CAE progs?

    Regards
    Christian
  5. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi: Cristian
    No i am not familiar with CAD/CAE progs.
    I spend some time on it, but i like to draw by hand.
    I did make a drawing for you. Scannen0002.jpg
    I hope you can open this, otherwise i will send it to you.
    When you see it, you now what i mean.
    I regret that your stepper project failled, but when you and the club likes this option,and start a new stepper
    project i will make and give the mounting plates.

    AD
  6. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    Well done, good idea.

    But this construction does not lock itself like wormgears or screws with low pitch.
    How much holding force (Nm) do the motors produce, which you are intended to use?

    Keep in mind that the lever increases the applied torque multiplied to the motor shaft backwards, in position holding situation, as well.

    UCP bearings would fit well to your construction I think.

    Regards
    Christian
  7. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi. Cristian
    You are right the motor must stall,so do all the roller acuators when they hold.
    When i take a look at Nanotec steppermotors (st8918L4508 and st8918L6708)
    they have a holding torque from 933,4 Ncm that is more than 45kg on a 5cm arm.
    I think that's more than you need.

    Ad
  8. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Wormgears and screws only lock when the angle is less than 3 degrade.
    When you want to work with screws or wormgears ,i have some idees to.
    I will make some drawings.

    AD
  9. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    I did make a mistake the holding torque will be 19kg, with the steppermotors 8918.
  10. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    hmm, perhaps 19kg per actuator is a little weak to hold position or to prevent loosing steps (while taking place in the seat or standing up). As well in that case (19kg) additional feedback devices (Encoders etc) would have to be applied to calibrate the system.
    I wont say that I couldnt work, but seems to be too risky for me to invest money for expensive motors.
    But if someone would have a pair of matching ones, it would be worth a try.

    Do you think it would be possible to make a DIY wormgear box for a reasonable price? We would have to order the wormgears (perhaps with end maching) and matching toothweels, but we could make the housing with bearings by ourselves perhaps. We just would have to prevent it leaking the oil, as the wormgear cannot run dry.
    Perhaps with UCF bearings? Dont know if they are leak proof....
    I am just mentioning this, because I have found a cheap supplier for 1000-1200W DC motors with lots of Nm, if reduced 1:60.
    1000watt-dc-motors-for-platforms-t822.html

    I could draw such a box with ProE nearly instantly, but we would have to find a cheap source for the wormgears.

    Ideas?

    Regards
    Christian
  11. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Yes it's possible to make your one gearbox but not smart,it will cost more than buying one.
    All the normal gearboxes for DC current (the big ones)are totaly closed ,and the only thing you have to do
    is to mount a plate on it , on this plate you mount the motor .
    there must be made a adaptor shaft ,that fits on the motorshaft and in the hole of the gearbox.

    regards
    AD
  12. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    You've got me wrong. I havent asked you to make a wormgearbox for me. I just asked if you think that it would be worth to make one by ourselves for less instead of buying a commercial one.

    Can one buy the wormgears as a set? Threaded shaft and toothweel? Are they some kind of standartised parts, or are they special parts in general?
    Havent spent time on investigating that yet.

    regards
    Christian
  13. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi Cristian
    I dit take a look at it some time aggow,and never find a cheap worm and wormwheel.
    You have to work very pecise with inn 0,05mm ,fore the worm and wheel.
    You need a stainles shaft fore te wormwheel (the oil will oxedice nomal steel)
    The house must be able to handle the torque.
    You need bearings,sils,etc.,etc..
    This wil cost 75% from from a exiting one.
    So if you want to make a sheaper one have fun with it.
    A spurgear you can make alot cheaper.
  14. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    That's right, spurgears are cheaper for sure, but they dont lock themselves. The issue is, that without selflocking the motors would have to be set under high current permanently and would heaten up alot more. As well they wont be able to hold position without jittering. Thats the killer for spurgears I think.

    I tried to work out a DIY ball-screw actuator some time ago, but it seemed to become very expensive as well, if you add the additional parts arround the screw to achieve a full working linear actuator. As well I feared to order some test screws because I am not very familiar with the calculations that have to be made. In particular regarding the pitch in combination with motor power and rps.
    But perhaps we could have a look on this once again.

    Using a stepper would be an option still. But I dont know how far Sirnoname has proceeded with the stepper interface/driver, as we stopped the development on steppers at that time.

    Regards
    Christian
  15. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi Cristian.
    Spurgears can take the jittering they roll don't slide,but you gone feal this in your chair i think.
    I take a look at the big dofs on the net.,in my opinion they work with spurgears and overpower them a lot
    to avoid heating up the motors when stalling.
    I am working on a system to make your one cheape actuaters at home with hand tools,
    but there are some things i have solve first before i can post this.
    With this system every one can make there own, with the speed and travel and force they want, and they will lock
    of current.
    A little one you can make with 6 doorlits,and a metric screw.
    I will post a drawing later.


    regards AD
  16. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    This is wath i mean.

    Attached Files:

  17. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi. Cristian.
    I did some thinking ,to make a roller actuator with stepper motor so cheape as possible.
    Without using machinery.
    I dit make a drawing for you,but i have made a little mistake with it.
    (The Thanos wheel on the monting plate must be fixt in line with the shaft,to avoid bending)
    You will understand when you see.
    The formula fore the motor is:F= E x M x 2 X pi : H
    F=force
    E=efficiency (From a trapped screw = 50% /rollerscrew = 90%)
    M=torque in Newton meters
    H= treath in meters
    So E=0,9 X M=0,2 x 2 x Pi=3,14159 : H=0,005 (whit shaft 16x5) F=226N =23kg lineal force
    This way you go from radial to lineal force.
    The formula fore acceleration i can,t remeber anymore.
    When you need 23kg vertical multiply M 2 times.

    Attached Files:

  18. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    How do you tighten the ballscrew in the bearings? I think the bearingscrew wont be able to hold the screw in position.

    The speed is a very important factor. Our DIY linerar stepper drive has a pitch of 5mm as well, and I can tell you for sure, that we havent been able to reach 100mm/s. Keep in mind that steppers loose quite hefty torque at at high rps, and they are not able to run that fast like DC motors.

    If you want to go for steppers with ballscrews, the pitch and motor torque has to be alot higher to achieve good speeds with enough torque.

    For 5mm pitch you have to use geared DC motors, because of the higher rps, and because they get stronger the more current you apply, unlike steppers.

    We should try to achieve at least 150mm/s or above.

    Have a look at the FD401. What do you think what motors and screw-pitch they use? Or the scn5 acutators.

    Regards
    Christian
  19. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi. Cristian
    Fore the motor take a look at nanotec stepper. st5918x2008 watch the torque curbe.
    Fore tightening the shaft 4 short metal tubes and a little whelding,when you are not able to whelde gluw it.
    Fore the gluw take a look at bison.nl (sorry it's only in dutch)the name from the gluw is Kombi Power.
    With this gluw you can gluw different metals (rvs,steel,iron,aluminium) with a force from 160kg/cm2.
    I use this gluw proff. fore years and it's perfect there are different brands but this one is the best.
    The roller bold i gluw allsow, And center the bold with a pipe cutter,the giding bearing you can gluw allsow.
    Fore your tryed steppermotor project :that is a sliding one 40% les efficient than a roller one .
    And i dont now how strong they are there is no torque curbe.
    The scn5 are 3amp i dont think they use verry strong motors,the FD401 i can't find them
    please make a link.

    regards AD
  20. tronicgr

    tronicgr

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    Hi,

    The FD401 (Force dynamics 401) probably use AC motors!

    In the specs says:

    Code:
    Electrical:
    The 401 is equipped with an isolation transformer and may be used with the non-polarized outlets found in many parts of the world.
    Input Voltage: 120 VAC; 240 VAC optional
    Input Current, rms: (120VAC) 20A
    Input Current, peak: (120VAC) 80A
    
    Electrical components are mounted in a subframe fabricated from Galvalume (55% Al-Zn coated sheet steel). This steel is corrosion resistant and allows excellent and reliable ground connections. All fan openings are covered with metal screens and the power connection is via a standard filtered and switched power entry module. A 25 ampere single pole thermal circuit breaker protects the circuit in case it is connected to an unfused power source.
    
    Dynamic Performance:
    Pitch Acceleration (peak): 5 rad/sec/sec
    Roll Acceleration (peak): 10 rad/sec/sec
    Heave Acceleration (peak): 2.0 g
    Yaw Acceleration (peak): 6 rad/sec/sec
    Regards, Thanos
  21. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    H i. Thanos and Cristian.
    I dit some recource after the dyadic snc5
    About te treath the rod diameter is 15mm so the rollershaft must be smaller, and the treath can't be more than
    the shaft diameter (otherwise it won't rotate)
    Some specs. of them:push mode max. 70 N /Force with speed 100mm/sec.=5kg
    200mm/sec.=2,5kgf /300mm/sec.=1,3kgf /400mm/sec.=0,5kgf
    vertical thrust 7kgf max.
    regards AD