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Question [Newbie] Starting my rig

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by Mike Melga, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. Halloween2go

    Halloween2go Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi Mike H2go here, I have not used them but all of those are the 'Shaker' or "speaker" part of a typical DIY setup. They all would require an amp to operate. Look to be a 100watt amp per device.
    The Butt Kicker I bought came with a 90 or 100 watt amp, and the shaker (and cables etc).
    If you already have an amp, just make sure the Ohm rating on the shakers is appropriate for the amp.
    You are in the right ballpark with those "shakers", you just need to amplify the signal to get them to work the way they should.
  2. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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  3. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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  4. Halloween2go

    Halloween2go Active Member Gold Contributor

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    I took a look those motors from the link you sent. I think that's others in the forum may be better suited to answer. You want good speed, which they seem to have and you also want high torque in (NM). Because your design is different than mine, I cant assume they would work the same as I have mechanical advantages due to the shoulder mount. Perhaps Noorbeast can help. Maybe PM him
  5. 427Cobra

    427Cobra There is no substitute for cubic inches

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    I bought this motor directly from the manufacturer Dake Motor in China, via Alibaba.com. Very good customer support and the order process went very smooth, Ordered some gear box spare parts at the same time in the same shipping to be prepared for the future, just in case...
    12V, 200W, 3000prm, 50:1 with double side shaft. Haven't got my rig ready yet so I can't give my opinion about the use but worked fine when I made a run test without load.

    https://dakemotor.en.alibaba.com/pr....html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.88.33.32135561CTG0h8

    https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.icbuShop.41413.14.5d077d85VVt34O

    [​IMG]

    Attached Files:

    • R4.jpg
      R4.jpg
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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  6. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    @427Cobra,

    Thanks! That is another option. When will you have your rig ready? :)
    How much did it cost? $99? Was shipping to high?
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2020
  7. 427Cobra

    427Cobra There is no substitute for cubic inches

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    Hello Mike,

    The shipping cost was $99 but the weight of the box was 11kg and the shipping time was short by DHL so I think it’s normal. The total cost for 2 motors with custom made drive shafts (length) ($100/each) + 1 extra set of gearwheels + 2 custom made shaft couplers + shipping was $360. Then local tax to be added but DHL made the paper work so it went smooth.

    Don’t know when my rig will be ready, it’s a long term project, but hopefully before the end of the year. Some more hours and then it’s ready for start up and learn how to set up the software.
  8. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    Hi again.

    Been in contact with Sunrise Motors (China).
    They are motor suppliers for DOF Reality.
    They offered me the following motors as one of their most suitable and powefull for motion sims.
    The specs seem nice but I don't know exactly what to look for.

    What do you think?

    Attached Files:

  9. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  10. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    @yellofella
    @noorbeast

    Yes, I know you already pointed me the sim calc but my knowledge is not enough to use it. I even thought it was only for shoulders mounts. I did not knew it could be used for compact 'under the seat' movers.

    I just don't know what values it needs.
  11. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    Hi buddy @Mike Melga
    SimCalc is used before you buy any hardware or build anything, therefore all the values that you put into it are based on an idea that you have of what sim you want to build. When you say you don't know what values it needs are you referring to the x,y,z geometry values of the frame or the fact that because you dont know what motors you need you dont know the values for them.
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  12. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    @yellofella,

    I have read so many posts, seen so many videos in the last few weeks that I guess I don't know anything!
    The design I will go for is the compact seat mover as I already mentioned. I'm attaching a picture of if.
    I guess that design has a somewhat fixed geometry. I can make the lever with 10cm or 15cm but the angle will always be 90, I guess.
    And that is about the only thing I know. Where, having only that info, can I see what motor specs should I look for?

    Attached Files:

  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Keep in mind that a compact rig needs lots of torque to drive it. Increasing the Center To Center (CTC) length of the lever increases the linear speed, but decreases the torque. It will depend on motor/gearbox specs and placement but I suspect you will end up with a CTC in the 60-80mm range using something like 200w and 60:1 ratio.
  14. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    Hi @Mike Melga
    Ill try and explain a few points that may help you decide which motors you are going to need for the design that you want to build. There is no exact fit when it comes to motors for sim building so you have to gear it mechanically to exact it for your needs ( this is what simcalc does). The target you are looking for is greater than 300mm per second. Ill explain further.
    I guess you have chosen the compact seat mover design due to limitations on the area that you have to put the sim in. The mechanical gearing point for that design are the lever centre to centre (ctc) distance and degrees of motor rotation as well as some over drive on the motors.
    If you used a 30mm ctc lever on a wiper motor @ 60rpm and the full 180 degrees available then your sim linear speed would be (60mm lever travel at 1 revolution per second = 60 mm per half second @180 degrees = 120mm per second). May be ok for flight but not an f1 racer. To get 300mm/s you would need a lever of 75mm ctc. This lever length would probably be to much for a wiper motor to handle current wise so would need a bigger motor. You would also have 150mm of lever travel under the seat which would result in massive seat movements.
    In your post you put the angle will always be 90 degrees (you guess). This is not true as it will depend on the potentiometers you have. I have never seen a 90 degree pot so id guess they were either 180 or 300 degree. To use 90 degrees of lever travel you would have to gear the pots down or use massive amounts of clipping (gears are better to retain sensor resolution). Your right to only use 90 degrees of travel as anything beyond 45 degrees either side of centre is inefficient. Gear the pots to the desired degrees of travel needed.
    Ok so say you wanted for your design 75mm of travel (+-32.5mm off centre). If you use a 75mm ctc lever using 90 degrees of travel @ 60rpm then the speed would be 75mm* 1 quater revolution @ 1 revolution per second = 300mm per second. Now you will need a motor with enough power to achieve 60 rpm with a 75mm lever on it with your weight on the seat and all the sim gear mounted. Only you know how much this is but getting a good balance point and saving weight where you can is good way to go and will reduce the amount of power the motors need.
    So what if you used a bigger motor, well you could use a longer lever say 100mm and less rotation say 72 degrees. The travel would still be 75mm but the speed would be 75mm * 1 fifth of a revolution @ 1 revolution per second = 375mm per second.
    So you may ask is there a minimum amount of revolution you can use at the motor spindle. Well there is but it will depend on the gearbox on the motor and the motor itself. Say you use a 50:1 gearbox and 90 degrees of travel then the motor before the gearbox will turn 50/4 = 12.5 turns or 4500 degrees. A 10 bit ADC with 1024 points of resolution would result in 4.4 degrees of motor revolution per point of resolution on the ADC. I dont think a dc motor could achieve that degree of precision anyway but that is the basic math on it.
    This is the reason no one on here can tell you which motors are right for you as there are so many variables to take into account to deter the right motor fit.
    Now to complicate maters further the motors can be over driven. I have the pgsaw motors and they are rated at 20nm stall torque at 180w. Now i drive them with a motor monster in half bridge mode at up to 28A continuous and 60A peak at 13v. This equates to 28x13= 360w continuous and 60x13= 780w peak. Yet my motors barely get warm when the sim is running. Now im not sure on this but if the motor stall torque increases with the watts then i get way more torque than 20nm. How much you can over drive the motors depends on the sim and the motors so there is no set amount and will be limited by the motor driver current output.
    You can also select a gearbox that suits your build when you buy the motors. A higher geared 60:1 motor will reduce overall rpm but increase torque allowing a larger ctc lever to be used at lower degrees of travel to gain linear speed. Where as a lower geared 25:1 motor would use a shorter lever due to increased rpm and less torque at a higher degree of spindle travel to achieve the same linear speed. You will have to take into account that lower geared motors can easily be back driven into your build.
    So basically it depends on how much you want to spend on the motors. If you have the money for big motors then get them as they will be better, if not then you will have to mechanically gear your sim to the motor power available like the rest of us diy builders. I would suggest that your starting point would be the pgsaw type motor with a 50:1 gear box as these really do pack a punch but you will be looking to pay about 200 euros each for them wherever you get them from once they are delivered. The motors are going to be the heart of your sim so money spent here is money well spent.
    You could always move the position of the motors to be next to the pedals at the front and create a greater distance between the pivit point and the motors. You would greatly reduce the overall movement and speed but would remain compact. You could use much smaller motors though, just a thought......
    I hope this makes sense and helps buddy as i dont know what else to tell you. Simcalc would do a much better job on the math but i tried to keep it as simple as i can for this explanation to help you out.
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  15. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    @yellofella

    Wow! Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation!
    I am gonna study it and will let you know what I figured out :)

    Sorry for my abuse but let me just ask you something: you started mentioning my other concern: motor drivers.
    The motor I am leaning to is 400w/48A at 12v. It is also available as 800w/48A at 24v.
    I was told that 24v would be better (less heat) but I can't seem to find a 24v driver for them. Most drivers (moto monster, sabertooth) are only 12v. Is it really better to go for the 24v version?
    Also that moto monster half bridge mode looks cool. I would need 2 moto monster per motor but...do I need 2 power supplies per motor?

    Thanks again for all your help!
  16. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    @Mike Melga
    Have you got a link to the website that the 400w/48A motors are on as you never mentioned which gearboxes they have or the rpm of the final drive. Would be good to know before i can give an opinion on them for you.
    Ok so on to motor drivers then. Again there are many you can choose from, have a look here at this webpage
    https://www.robotshop.com/uk/high-power-motor-controllers.html
    Most of them if not all of them will run at 24v. The downside to all of them is that they are regenerative motor drivers and will need a battery in parallel or the large resistors that some members choose to use to absorb the regenerative voltage spikes. The resistors will get hot so would need extra cooling. The manufacturer recommends the battery route in the data sheet but this would result in 2 12v battery's in series if a 24v battery cant be found with a 24v power supply in parallel. Not the most practical route when you use multiple motor drivers. It seems that all modern motor drivers are going the regenerative route so i guess we will all have to deal with it at some point as they will soon be the only drivers available.
    I choose to use the motor monster due to not having to deal with the regenerative problem. The downside is they are only 12v (16v max) and finding good ones is a bit hit and miss. Sparkfun doesn't make the genuine driver anymore so the ones that you buy will be cheap Chinese clones and would need through testing before you use them in half bridge mode due to a high number being faulty. There is a page in the FAQ with a list of suppliers that have supplied good drivers that members have tested as well as how to test them properly.
    I have chosen to use a single power supply per motor and single motor drivers. This is done to allow current to be available to each motor when it needs it as well as limiting the current to 48A per motor. Also i can use cheap led power supplies. You could use a duel motor driver with no problems but you would need to use a power supply that can supply the duel drivers current needs. For instance the sabertooth duel 60A motor driver can drive 60A per channel continuous and 120A per channel peak. Now if you can find a power supply that can deliver 240A at 24v then i bet it will be very expensive. This is when you would use 2 single drivers and 2 power supplies to keep costs down. I wouldn't recommend pairing two power supplies together as this can be problematic if not dangerous at the current levels you will be using.
    As to the 12v or 24v question. That's a tough one to answer as i have only used 12v on my sim and have spent over £400 on pgsaw 12v motors. I was thinking of buying a 24v driver and power supply to test using my 12v motors at 24v. If they could handle the current if or when they stall without overheating then running at 24v would double the speed of the motor up to 120 rpm. That would equate to nearly 900mm per second on my rig which already packs a good punch. Im currently working on my gseat project so it will be waiting until that is finished before i do any testing on a working sim.
    Here is a web page on the voltage differences of dc brushed motors that might help.
    https://www.4qd.co.uk/docs/12-24-36... it at its full rated mechanical load/current.
    hope this helps buddy
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  17. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    @yellofella

    Thanks for your reply.
    I've attached the motor specs.

    As for the moto monsters.. I bought them from a 'recommended' seller. Let's see how it goes.

    Attached Files:

  18. yellofella

    yellofella Member

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    @Mike Melga
    You have posted the specs of your motor in a pdf file. To open these files it costs coins so myself and other members tend to shy away from opening them unless its a download they want. This is going to restrict the amount of comment you will get when asking advice
    The best way is to post just the text inside the file or do screen grabs of it and upload the pictures.
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  19. Mike Melga

    Mike Melga Member

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    @yellofella

    Ohhh...I did not know that. I am new to all this 'coin' stuff :)

    So here are the spec for both motors (12v and 24v)

    MODEL : 100ZYT166-1225-50RV50-71B14
    VOLTS : 12V
    No-LOAD SPEED: 2500 +/-10% RPM
    RATED POWER : 400W
    RATED SPEED : 1750 +/- 10% RPM
    RATED TOROUE : 2.2N.m
    RATED CURRENT : 48 A
    TYPE : TENV
    DUTY : S1
    PROTECTION :IP-44
    INS.CLASS : B
    DIRECTION : BI-DIRECTIONAL
    GEAR RATIO : 1:50
    RATED SPEED : 35 +/- 10% RPM
    RATED TORQUE : 100Nm



    MODEL : 100ZYT166-2450-50RV50-71B14
    VOLTS : 24V
    NO-LOAD SPEED : 4800 +/- 10% RPM
    RATED POWER : 800W
    RATED SPEED : 3500 +/- 10% RPM
    RATED TOROUE : 2.2N.m
    RATED CURRENT : 48 A
    TYPE : TENV
    DUTY : S1
    PROTECTION :IP-44
    INS.CLASS : B
    DIRECTION : BI-DIRECTIONAL
    GEAR RATIO : 1:50
    RATED SPEED : 70 +/- 10% RPM
    RATED TORQUE : 100Nm


    Also attached a picture.

    Thanks again!

    Regards

    Attached Files:

  20. Rens

    Rens Member

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    @yellofella ,

    I have read your post and have a question. What did you mean with "You will have to take into account that lower geared motors can easily be back driven into your build" what does back driven mean?

    I am currently working on a 6dof (that's the plan right now at least). Currently working on a prototype and all 6 servo's seem to be working with my code so far. The upcoming days/weeks I will be modeling/building the prototype. If all goes well I will also have to choose a good motor and the rest that comes with this. Your post was helpful for sure.

    Maybe I will create my own thread to share my progress (when I made some). I am recording it anyways so if it's finished I will showcase it for sure :)

    @Mike Melga, Why did you buy 2 different motors? Any reason for that?