1. For downloading SimTools plugins you need a Download Package. Get it with virtual coins that you receive for forum activity or Buy Download Package - We have a zero Spam tolerance so read our forum rules first.

    Buy Download Package Now!
  2. Do not try to cheat our system and do not post an unnecessary amount of useless posts only to earn credits here. We have a zero spam tolerance policy and this will cause a ban of your user account. Otherwise we wish you a pleasant stay here! Read the forum rules
  3. We have a few rules which you need to read and accept before posting anything here! Following these rules will keep the forum clean and your stay pleasant here. Do not following these rules will lead to permanent exclusion from this website: Read the forum rules.

Motion Sim w/ Surge & Traction Loss

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by Boomslangnz, Oct 26, 2014.

  1. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,263
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    106,302Coins
    Ratings:
    +8,763 / 42 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Is your point to try and offend? It seems the only relevance is that you overlooked the subsequent posts where @Boomslangnz actually explained what he had done with the settings and the practical suggestion re lighting for future videos.

  2. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I saw all that @noorbeast . And ive recently spoken to boomz over the phone. The meme was in jest.
    Lighten up. Heres something for you.
    12188928_904342802983104_3109004253321430789_n.jpg
  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,263
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    106,302Coins
    Ratings:
    +8,763 / 42 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Oh the irony :grin
    • Funny Funny x 2
  4. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,999
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    29,495Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,007 / 30 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    Ok I am back at home but too busy to take a "fresh" video but I found an older one (w/o the new tables) which should demonstrate what I wanted to mention about synchronization between car, display and sim.
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    Balance:
    4,018Coins
    Ratings:
    +234 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 4DOF
    hmm yeah I see but we are talking completely different rigs, completely different motors, completely different controllers and completely different games. I said I cant get good motion in iracing, I never said I cant get decent motion in other games

    Do you have a video of you playing iracing at all as ive spoken to a couple others and they all said motion is crap in iracing so I would like to see that
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,999
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    29,495Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,007 / 30 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    I would like to say that the rig must do a job - independent of which motors etc we are using - it does the job or it does not.
    You should get what you see - if the action on the displays differ from what the sim is doing, the immersion is not the same as it could be, completely independent of our sim design. 2DOF, 3DOF, TL - what else you have build.
    About iRacing: unfortunately I have no real experience. I bought a starter package a few months ago, but stopped playing due to personal reasons. I did not test any motion profiles. So if this issue is iRacing related I cannot help.
    If you need any support by sorting out any AC settings, I kindly offer any help to you.
  7. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    Balance:
    4,018Coins
    Ratings:
    +234 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 4DOF
    @Pit Thanks I may be keen to look at AC sometime some more!

    I don't really wanna say my motion is awesome elsewhere as I'm not sure it is really, but it does seem worse in iracing for some reason. I'm happier with the feel of Project Cars and Assetto for instance but looking at your video it sure does look cool and I'm not sure ive ever had that sorta immersion from my motion

    Ive just gone through all my jrk config settings, simtools settings etc to see if anyone sees something ive done wrong. Ive played with settings so many times over the weeks etc that I may of stuffed something up I guess aswell so please take a look if you don't mind!

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  8. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,999
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    29,495Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,007 / 30 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    @Boomslangnz IMO the jerks are working fine, but NTL @bsft is the king of jerks so he will give you as usual any support if there is something wrong.
    Due to different wirings the direction of the motors of the SimTools settings differ from other builds, so it is hard to check the correlation of the directions. I remember there is a FAQ probably @noorbeast can help here for more information.

    As far as I could see on the video I would disable Roll and pitch first. It is impossible for me to separate the forces seen only on the video, so to reduce your effort it would help to do as I suggested.

    BTW did you try out switching the surge forces? While accelerating the seat goes forward is something really impressive!

    And PLEASE ;) ;) make any more videos only from the back view, not from the game and pedals. This helps a lot. Thank you.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,263
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    106,302Coins
    Ratings:
    +8,763 / 42 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    The interface settings look OK.

    In the rear left and rear right JRK P looks too high relative to D, which will normally be higher, have you followed @bsft's guide to find the settings: http://www.xsimulator.net/community...-set-up-simtools-jrks-and-write-profiles.112/

    Surge and traction loss PIDs looks OK.

    I am guessing you have a reason for the traction loss motor settings being significantly lower than the rears or surge.

    I don't use iRacing but in the Tuning Center it is highly unusual to have Heave higher than something like Sway, though if I recall iRacing has gravity effects so that may be it. Did you go through and tune the settings one force at a time, starting with Surge then Sway then Heave? Personally I would leave out Pitch and Roll until those other forces are pretty much perfect.
    • Old Old x 1
  10. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    @Boomslangnz , the JRK settings look ok here as well. I thought maybe a little high on the P on the shoulder motors, but the traction loss motor P is ok . So thats fine.
    If there are no errors, then leave things as they are.
    With motion, different game engines will give different motion.
    I think Iracing is based off the nascar 2003 engine. So as its an old game, but has good laser scanned tracks, the only thing you can do to compare is run say , rfactor or race 07 and test to see what the difference might be.
    Otherwise , its all good.
    Dave.
  11. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    Balance:
    4,018Coins
    Ratings:
    +234 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 4DOF
    That p is higher cos I went over it with rob. He wanted it high
  12. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,263
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    106,302Coins
    Ratings:
    +8,763 / 42 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    I determine the initial P and D as half the value of when the motors start to oscillate when you move the slider bar fast from side to side in the JRK Input tab.
  13. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    not always, in this case experience has spoken and advised him.
    EDIT, over the years , depending on frame build, Ive had P anywhere from 0.2 to 1 and D from 0.3 to 1.6
    Its dependent on each setup, not a FAQ link. My guide is a guide, not fact. granted there are base settings, but Booms has been advised by the JRK king.
  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,263
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    106,302Coins
    Ratings:
    +8,763 / 42 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Experience has always been key to manual PID setting @bsft, but oscillation is, as I pointed out, the standard model on which to tune at approximately half of that value for a "quarter amplitude decay" type response, which has nothing to do with FAQ links but rather is the basis of the manual approach to PID tuning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  15. scalhoun

    scalhoun Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2014
    Messages:
    125
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Balance:
    885Coins
    Ratings:
    +136 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Are you using the new plugin with heave as extra2? I'll dig up all my setting so you can compare to what you have for Iracing
    • Like Like x 2
  16. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    @noorbeast , the PID values have been sorted, ok!
    Its not an oscillation problem, its a discussion about comparisons in motion.

    @Boomslangnz has spent a LOT of time with @eaorobbie and established a PID suitable for his rig.
    @noorbeast , If you have a better idea about PID, then take it up with @eaorobbie .
    The original discussion was motion in iracing. and he is not completely happy because the base game and physics engine for the game is nearly 13 years old.
    He has stated he can get good motion from other games, just iracing is not quite good as he would like it to feel.
    Now, as @Pit and you do not play iracing enough, you really cannot comment.
    @scalhoun , yes please, if you are regular iracing player, can you please advise the boomster.
    Dave out.
  17. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    facepalm.jpg
    http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/motion-sim-w-surge-traction-loss.5950/page-16#post-91447
  18. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    Balance:
    4,018Coins
    Ratings:
    +234 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 4DOF
    @scalhoun yeah mate, if you could post your settings that would be great. Yes I was using extra2 as my heave but since Pit was saying I had no heave I put it back to heave to try that out. However I will properly put it back to Extra2 as although he says I had no heave, I could feel heave just fine when in seat. I take it theres nothing which stands out as any settings wrong in simtools since no one has stated they see anything.

    Is there anyone playing iracing which has really good motion?
  19. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    14,263
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    106,302Coins
    Ratings:
    +8,763 / 42 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    I am sure @Boomslangnz appreciates the help from @eaorobbie and everyone else. That said as many others do @Boomslangnz posted settings looking for feedback, to which members responded long before he or yourself suggested he had resolved anything @bsft.

    That you need to rate such member efforts retrospectively as 'old', and subsequently 'dislike' something linked to the world wide authoritative source for knowledge is your own prerogative. I trust others can see past the persistent personality stuff and appreciate that members respond to posts based on the information presented. In this case I hope members do take the time to follow that link to better their understanding of PID functions and different approaches to PID settings. The more we delve into a topic the more we deepen our own understanding.

    Given you also suggest that extensive experience with iRacing should be a requirement for anyone trying to assist @Boomslangnz then perhaps you could post your own standing in the iRacing league as justification for your own involvement in this thread.
    • Old Old x 1
  20. Boomslangnz

    Boomslangnz Active Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    Balance:
    4,018Coins
    Ratings:
    +234 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 4DOF
    Right lets get this topic back to racing etc,

    I actually have changed my seat last couple days, going from a big heavy bucket seat with mdf board underneath etc to a fibreglass bucket seat with side mounts which I figured would only help with picking up finer motion etc

    I decided to try out some Project Cars and had a small 5 lap race which Ill post a video off (yes I know I haven't sorted the lighting behind rig etc, ill do that in due course but I did adjust the pics so my frame is showing more etc now, let me know your opinion on how I could improve these videos apart from the lighting if possible please!)

    I noticed during the race I wasn't really getting any gear change motion etc really so afterwards I turned off a few things and adjusted surge on the seat only, put my tuning numbers right down to 0.2 from 0.8 and was feeling good accelerating surge etc in seat now but still no gear motion. Now most games I play I don't bother using clutch on the upshifts, but it turns out you need too in Pcars to get the gear kicks basically. As soon as I tried clutching on upshifts I was getting a good wee kick whenever I upshifted, I took a small 2nd video afterwards to maybe show the gear kicks etc and change in surge. I'm not sure if that's the same in Iracing or Assetto as only car I need to clutch for upshifts in iracing is the mx5

    I cant heel toe unfortunately, one day I should attempt to learn it

    anyway the motion feels so much better to me personally in Project Cars compared to Iracing but take a look and see what you think, id rather receive your honest opinions on changes to be made etc so please give me the harsh criticism :p

    My 5 lap race of Watkins Glen


    My small video of surge adjustment (gear kicks etc)