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K8055 - Dual Wiper Motor Control with Variable Speed

Discussion in 'SimTools compatible interfaces' started by bigtalltim, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. libory

    libory New Member

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    Hi,

    I am building your board with the K8055 too and I have it done following the instructions in this forum and I have a problem. Could you tell me what is wrong please?
    Everything works fine but when the PWM is 0 I get full rotation of the motor when it is 255 then stops. Could you tell me what is going on with this please? how can I invert this?

    If you think it is a problem with the transistor I live in UK and I would like to know if you don't mind the reference number of Maplin for that transistor as my knoledge in electronics are not great. and maybe the one I bought is no the right one.

    Thanks.
  2. kevinket

    kevinket New Member

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    libory,

    I believe you have it correct - Within K8055_Demo, if the slider is at 0, the motor spins - when the slider is at 255, the motor stops.

    Take a look at page 14 of this topic (How the PWM Output Controls the Speed) for a description by Tim.
    You can also look on page 8 - the last post has a quote from Vel255 that describes it as well.

    I had concerns about how this would work and I posted them a couple pages back in this topic - because power would be sent to the motor unless the x-sim software prohibits it. I've chosen to put a cutoff switch in place that prohibits power being sent to the motor unless/until I push the switch.

    Take a look at the last post on page 27 and the first few posts in page 28 for my discussion about this.
  3. libory

    libory New Member

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    Thank you Kevinket,

    I can see now the little issue here. I am going to make a break switch too and turn on only when the game is running.

    Another thing please if you don't mind. I have noticed when I move the slider of the PWM in the demo of the K8055 and the motor starts turning more or less at 50% of the slider... is this normal? my motors are not very good do you think it could be the problem?

    I tried BigTallTims version for Dual Relay setup.rn2 from Tim's first post in x-sim and my motors turn really, really slow at full of the slider. Still I have to have a look how x-sim works and I hope I need to setup this file to my motors... is this right?

    Thanks again....
  4. kevinket

    kevinket New Member

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    You should be OK there.
    My motors don't start spinning until slider position is more that 50% (more toward zero that is) in the K8055_demo software.


    To control how much power is needed to drive the motor, I've found an option in the Output setup section:
    control-power-send.jpg

    Right-click on the Set Analog Output dynamic value and select Edit.
    In that dialog, move the bottom slider to the right:
    control-power-send.jpg

    That seemed to work for me at least.

    Attached Files:

  5. libory

    libory New Member

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    Hi,

    I have a problem with my board and my wiper motors. They work fine but I noticed one thing and I don't know what could be wrong. If I connect the wires of the motors in the blue connectors in the image my motors turn without power and quite slow, I can stop them with my own hands. If I connect ( temporally) to the red points where it comes direct from the power supply my motors work fantastic with lots of power and speed. Any help of what I am doing wrong please?

    I used the next components just in case there is any wrong:

    Relay - http://www.maplin.co.uk/10a-dpdt-miniature-relays-37518 - I used the code N08AW 10A 12v
    Transistor - http://www.maplin.co.uk/high-power-npns ... tors-19066 - I used the code BL45Y - 2N3055
    Diodes x2 - http://www.maplin.co.uk/rectifier-diode-19079 - QL73Q - 1N4001S
    And one 1K resistor

    [​IMG]
  6. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi libory

    Best guess with not much information is one of the two common problems below:

    1. Transistor is incorrectly wired
    Very common as components vary in layout. Make sure that the legs of your transistor match the leg layout of the circuit.
    Try downloading the datasheet for your component (just google {your part number} datasheet. That will show you the layout.
    The base (b) must connect to the resistor and K8055 output... collector (c) connects to +ve via the diode, and emitter (e)connects to the -ve.

    2. Your diodes may be backwards...
    Other than that, there is really very little that could be wrong!

    Your motors work - as discovered when you connect them directly to the power source, so that isnt the problem...

    Post a picture if you like, and I'll see if I can see anything obvious... though to be honest, I will be looking for the above ;)

    Regards

    Tim
  7. libory

    libory New Member

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    Thank you Tim for your help but still I can't see any problem with my board and components. Here is my Frankenstein board as I have been doing many experiments as you can see and the board is a bit destroyed. I am using or testing the one with lot of solder in the tracks. In the left bottom corner is the pinout of the transistor. I think everything is correct... :?

    Any ideas?

    [​IMG]
  8. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    yup... I need to spend a little more time to double check, but I think its a nice easy one to explain... but a new board to fix...

    You have etched the board backwards - what you see from the underside is the layout I have from the top.
    That works fine for the simple components (diodes and resistors), but not for the relay.

    I believe that you have the relay wired in mirror image, and that the contacts are all incorrectly assigned.

    Like I say, a reworking of the board I'm afraid - let me double check later, but I'm 99% sure that is the problem

    Regards

    Tim
  9. kevinket

    kevinket New Member

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    libory,

    Another thing I would recommend is that you go with different transistors.
    This link to the velleman forum discusses the reason why:
    http://forum.velleman.eu/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3839&start=30

    I had a very similar behavior when I used 2N3055's (same as a TIP3055, just different packaging). It could drive small low-amp motors but not high amp motors

    When I changed to the darlington transistor recommended in that link (2N6284 or MJ11016), everything worked fine.

    Kevin
  10. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    aye - have been over it again, and I believe your problem is the relay being wired up backwards... sorry - dont have any good news!

    on the transistors, there are a number of other choices, and I have tried many but few are as versatile (and here is a real irony) as the lucky bag ones I started with!!
    They are high voltage, high current, and fast switching... ideal for PWM control of a motor!

    Lucky bags (from maplin) contain a number of different kinds, with the following specs:

    BUF725D NPN 100V, 5A, 40W (see also BUF644, BUF636A, BUF725D)
    BUX127 NPN 50V, 15A, 125W

    I have used BUX127s exclusively for my relay boards, and everything on the top line for my Pneumatic Valve control board... no problems of any sort, except that all of the above get hot under load... use a fan ;)

    Tim
  11. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi Guys

    a quick note for everyone following this thread - development of the relay solution is definitly still ongoing - I have just started playing with pneumatics as a sideline

    I built a couple of test rigs with wiper motors very similar to the French guys in the sabretooth & K8055 thread, but they were no use for me - just didnt have enough power, hence moving to chains and gears etc.

    I was never happy with the results of these seat movers, so didnt post them yet, but will definitely revisit (as my kids are hassling me to build a pair of sims for them to race each other) - watch the other thread for that one ;o) This is likely to be a simple relay and wiper solution - quick, cheap and dirty... and really only suitable for child weight riders.

    My latest chain actuator build is near completion, and will work either as a linear actuator, or as a side arm type... will work in the same kind of frame as my pneumatic rig, or at the back of a seat like the SCN5 mounting (nothing like as fast though)
    As mentioned before, it has huge power, and moves at approx 10 inches per second - just need to wire up a new multiturn pot, and it is good to go... hopefully this weekend.

    Also in development is the circuit to control big dc motors with a custom relay solution... I need to test that setup myself before sharing, as it could quite easily fry a K8055 - or the user!!... I want to be really really sure with that one!!

    Pneumatics are something I can work on while I am away (designing/refining profiles etc and testing pulse routines on a spare K8055) the relay solution is a reasonably mature solution electronically, and is really at the place where I need to have motors handy to test further, and to build and share profiles.

    more this weekend! :thbup:

    Tim
  12. Gossi

    Gossi New Member

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    Hey there,

    some new infos?
  13. xXONESHOTXx

    xXONESHOTXx New Member

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    Hello Bigtalltim thank you for your response to my post. I am thinking of scraping the hole idea and going with your relay setup to use with my k8055.My question is do you sell the relay board or what would you charge to build one. I have made two atemps to duplicate it but have failed..... but really like the idea of the relays.
  14. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi - you might try building it on breadboard as Frakk suggested earlier on in the thread

    with only 6 components, it couldnt be easier... try building it on breadboard - that way you can easily rearrange it if it doesn't work.
    If you are looking for a prebuilt k8055 solution, try the Sabretooth as per Adbggs solution ;o)

    I dont have time to etch and build one for you, as am working flat out on a series of significant improvement to the board, which now includes on board analogue position control. I have been working on two variations (one for motors, the other for pneumatic valves)

    This is a lot more complicated, so I may do a run of pcbs eventually but for now am devoting what little spare time I currently have to ballancing my closed loop control board... you should try again - the only issue that I can see is that you have is that the board is etched backwards... dont let that hold you back - we've all done it!

    Tim
  15. xXONESHOTXx

    xXONESHOTXx New Member

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    Hey all another newbie here and have a few questions. First off thank you guys in advance for helping with my questions from an earlier idea. I have decided that there may be more information going the route posted as follows. I am not sure if this will work at all but I have had some luck with it up until now and now i could use some expert advice. I have wired up a group of relays per indicated on the drawing below. I have also shot a quick video of the progress so far.Sorry for the poor camera work I will make a better one if needed.

    Wiring:
    switchrelay2.gif


    Video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwoCU4prKYI


    Ok back to the questions.

    1.Is this setup going to work at all ? (IYO)
    2.Why can I use the calibrate tool but can not get the current running game to do anything ?
    3.Can and how do I setup xsim to use just stop switches for now?

    Any help will be great......Thank you all in advance
  16. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    As a control unit for a sim?... no - at least, not satisfactarily...
    as a motor controller?... - well... R.van.Deest thought so enough to copyright it!!

    Your problem is going to be lack of control - because you do not have variable speed, the motors will constantly hit maximum and minimum position, leading to a very unrealistic motion.

    (on that point by the way, the development of this solution should be continued in a new thread as this thread is for dual wiper motor control with variable speed ;) )

    The solution does have some potential - good work on getting the motor pair moving by the way! its a big step in the right direction :thbup:

    You need to focus your attentions on how to control the speed, and how to feedback position data - without these additions, it is a fundamentally flawed concept, and a waste of your time; it WILL move a sim... but so unrealistically, you will regret not doing it differently, and eventually change path anyway... save yourself some time!

    callibration is pointless, as you have no feedback of position data.
    Current running game problem may be the plugin you are using in force sender - make sure you have a supported game running, and selected from the plugin menu

    There really is no point - spend your time working on how to get speed control and feedback data on position sorted instead... pursuing a solution without these is just going to frustrate you in the long run ;)

    Will follow your thread with interest, and help out where I can :thbup:

    Tim
  17. xXONESHOTXx

    xXONESHOTXx New Member

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    Thank you for setting that straight for me Tim. I don't mean to make for more confusion but.... I pulled out my breadboard agin last night and gave your circuit another try... But with the same results as before... Using the test plugin I can move the motor faster and slower with the slider but even with the slider at full speed the motor runs very slow and anything below half way the motor does not move at all. I have used you diagram to build this circuit quite a few times now and I always get the same results...... Maybe it's software related? Or the wring is wrong? It seems to work fine other than the speed issue. Any idea on what I might be doing wrong?
  18. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    If you are using PWM, it could be that you need to change the settings in the dynamic out section - your motor may not turn until it reaches a certain value... this setting change will compensate for that slow start.

    to change the Global Minimum Analogue Output settings do the following:
    (this fixes all outputs within the axis in one operation)

    Double click on the Analogue output (highlighted in red oval) in your output setup section:
    click here.jpg

    Change the settings (highlighted in red box) and click accept:
    global min analogue output.jpg

    Experiment with that...
    As you already have variable speed working, I think that may be all it takes to crack your problem :thbup:

    Tim
  19. xXONESHOTXx

    xXONESHOTXx New Member

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    Ok sorry for the delay been really busy...... I Am pretty sure i got it going for the most part just got to get some better transistors as mine get a little to hot lol.......Anyway thank you for the help so far. I have read and read and cant figure out how to get it all to work. I can calabrite it and use the sliders to control direction and speed.....but when I start a plugin and a game I get nothing......not sure were to go from here..... anyone get any ideas. I have caught my self trying to find all the info before asking a question i am sure has been answered before but i am completly lost on what to do next..... sry for the typos I am on a phone on a trail ride. thanks for all the help guys
  20. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    No problem with being busy - am feeling that myself!!

    In response point by point:

    Transistors do get hot... this is quite normal! - you will need to use a fan and probably heat sinks when the motors are under load...
    you probably noticed this a little more on adjusting the global minimum analogue out - I certainly did!!

    On callibration, I say again, it is totally useless unless you have feedback pots.
    with feedback pots, it works out how far it is from one extreme of movement to the other and makes this detected range 0% to 100%.
    If you have the input settings set to do not use a reference input it wont do anything anyway!
    At worst, you may even find that the incorrect ranges produced by using callibration will compromising the effectiveness of the profile, or actually prevent it from working as it thinks it has completed the movement before even starting the motor.
    check to see whether your maximum and minimum values at the top right of the output setup screen are set to the same value... this could be a BIG part of your problem ;)

    Forget about callibration until you have pots connected. :thbup:

    On the plug in issue, I dont know - I need more information to be sure... but I have a suspicion:
    Post your profile, and I'll take a look for you...

    If you havent built a profile, and are using my original test profile I think we have found the problem!

    My original test profile is based on sliders 21 and 22 in the test tablet, and doesnt use feedback - it was a really early version.
    For in game data values, you need to set the effects used to different values.

    For instance, in test tab 21 and 22 are just the first two sliders, and convenient to use for testing...
    ...but in live for speed, these chanels or effects coming from force sender are differently assigned:
    21 is for Current gear and 22 is for current speed x100.

    Change these values for 25 (lateral force) and 27 (longtitudinal force) and you may be getting somewhere, as these values change significantly when you play the game.

    To see the difference in effect assignments between the plugins, try the following:

    click into force sender and select the test developer plugin.
    Then switch back to force profiler and click on the input setup button.
    Note the values of 21 and 22 (no description)
    Now switch back to force sender, and choose the life4speed plugin
    When you switch back to force profiler, you will see the values have changed.

    Do the same for what ever game you are playing, and note the effect numbers you need to use.
    You then need to change the value in the maths setup area to use your new selected values:

    To change a value, go to the maths setup screen.
    double click on the value number (or anywhere else in the line that contains it in the calculation table)
    Chose your alternative value from the drop down list, and click insert in maths list and continue

    When I finally get my new interface board with onboard position control finished I will post some up to date profiles
    Also, when I finally get some time off work I will revisit this original build to offer sample profiles that respond to in game feedback... for now, experiment with that and let us know how it goes - you are very close now... even getting the motors moving bidirectionally on demand is further than a lot of folks get - dont get disheartened!

    Regards

    Tim

    PS. There is, as I recall, some other things you have to do with life4speed... I think that there are some other values that you have to change in a file in the root directory to access the game data... let me look this up for you - I will post again later this evening.