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Tutorial "HPMC" High Power Motor controller H-bridge using N-MOSFETs

Discussion in 'Motor actuators and drivers' started by speedy, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Hi every one ... You want more power ? ... More fun for your simulator ?
    So this is the right place to start ... and first
    Q-What do you think they used for moving this simulator ?

    - Nothing hard to imagine I guess ... It's like pushing a big sliding drawer with built and a heavy duty DC motor ... which of course requires a powerful motor controller .​


    So, here is a DIY High Power Motor Controller HPMC ... If you want some of that motion .
    Many of us Who love to DIY and wants to have a bigger warm geared/wiper DC motors and bigger motor controller than those in the market if any is available/suitable .
    Although it seems like this DIY motor controller circuit requires a little effort in the level of assembling ... but No big deal I promise ... You will love it I'm sure .​

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Features :
    1- General Specifications:
    • Since we are talking about DC voltage ... So it is an H-Bridge to digitally control speed and direction of one DC motor .
    • I guarantee It can handle more than continuous 80A big DC motor pretty good .
    • completely compatible with SimAxe motion controller and SimTools software .
    • All components are self protected against reverse connecting the power source +/- terminals .
    • For cooling I use a "PC fan with it's heat sink" as the best heat squanderer ever. This is the best cooling method ... cooling is an essential issue here !!!.. And we are talking about performance !
    • The basic construction of this HPMC bridge is an 8 MOSFET's N-channel type ... Driven by two IR2110 half bridge driver IC's so to build a full H-Bridge .
    • The active elements into this HPMC are the IRF3205 N-MOSFET's this irf3205.pdf is it's datasheet ... They are a good choice ... read the datasheet if you have time .
      • Note : Between the lines for the MOSFET datasheet information ...You'll notice that every thing in tables is related to the temperature of the MOSFET's ..!! ( the best operating performance is @ 25C ) ... Therefor comes the powerful cooling stage.
    • For the MOSFETs driving IC IR2110 this IR2110 AN.pdf is it's datasheet conclusions summery ...
    IR2110 functional diagram.jpg ir2110.jpg
    voltages and control switching speed are way beyond MOSFET's and IGBT's capabilities, so you are free to choose whatever N-MOSFET's you like ... plus It has a shutdown feature for emergency stop option .

    • Also included in the circuit the 74HC08 Quad AND gate IC to get a perfectly time matched driving signals so NO shoot through could happen ever ... plus it controls the shutdown option in the IR2110 in case of malfunction in the input signals .
    74HC08N_74HC08.jpg HD74HC08-pinout.jpg
    • And since we have 2 motor wires connected to a digitally assigned 4 MOSFET's per " Forward/Reverse operation direction " ... that means a 4 working together @ the same time contact points taking care and Lowering the overall transient time for ON/OFF procedure for that direction ... so the full current will be delivered and cut off faster and powerfully.
    • Since we are designing this motor controller for motion simulators to move it 90% of the time in tiny Fd/Rv motions and pumps with some 10% hard Fd/Rv turns for the motor to keep up the required simulator positions in real time " the PID concept " ... that is a good challenge ... So this controller will operate mostly in it's heat zone ... and the cooling system turn is the key for faster cooling and better achievement to the PID concept is performed .
    2- How to Do it :
    • A BOM of all the components ...can be generated from a printed silkscreen PDF file of each layer ... or just use this components list.txt file ...
    • Single Side Board will be used by having a [ 8.5cmx8.5cm ]&[ 9.5cmx9.5cm ] PCB's that will be later mounted together back to back with copper layer sides out using jump wires linking them together electrically ...
      • Why using single side boards ? ... For unmounting the copper disk by having a full access to the MOSFET's screws using a screw driver through the Extra 8 holes made in the top layer board ... to be easy to solder/replace any defected MOSFET and fasten them again to the copper disk ... plus single side boards are cheaper .
    • Etching the copper layers ... For etching both the top and bottom PCB's I used the printable 1:1 PDF files on A4 glossy paper , with a laser printer and an old women makeup magazine ... (very cheap and Amazing output board quality to do a toner transfer) ... plus a white sticker paper for the silkscreen layer ( you may leave this point for now ). Also there is tons of videos on the internet describing this issue too ...
    2014-01-15 06.28.52.jpg 2014-01-15 06.40.46.jpg 2014-01-15 07.05.13.jpg 2014-01-15 07.04.08.jpg 2014-01-15 07.11.38.jpg 2014-01-15 07.57.44.jpg 2014-01-15 08.40.17.jpg

    Impotent Note : when processing layers ... ( top board will be as C1 layer and bottom board will be like a C2 layer ) ...To be look like a one double layer PCB board " BUT IT IS NOT" ... they are actually C1 layers, So the PDF files are arranged that way so you can directly print them 1:1 on A4 sheet without inverting any thing .

    Preview for top board copper layer printout for toner transfer process ...​
    HPMC top board copper.jpg
    Preview for bottom board copper layer printout for toner transfer process ...​
    HPMC bottom board copper.jpg


    HPMC v1.0a top layer copper.pdf
    HPMC v1.0a bottom layer copper.pdf


    this should be what boards look like after etching ...​
    xxx bottom board copper layer .............xxx top board copper layer .
    HPMC v1.0a bottom layer copper .JPG HPMC v1.0a top layer copper .JPG


    • Drilling holes for ALL the components is spared ... due to this kind of components arranging so they are now surface mounted to the boards ... but there is some essential drilling to be done .
      So there will be 15 x 1mm a through hole jumps ... look for ( J1-... -J15 ) in the silk screen ... mounting between two boards ...
    It's recommended to : drill all holes at the same time for both boards held together with a big paper clip, So all holes are at the exact same place ...
    images.jpg
    • and 8 x 3mm holes are required for Fan mounting, power and motor cables for each board on the sides and corners .
    • Extra 8 x 5mm holes is required to the MOSFET's mounting in the top board only( bigger holes for the screw driver ) so the MOSFET's could be fastened to the copper disk .
    • Silkscreen is done to the surface before soldering components to avoid making a mess with solder between tracks ...So after drilling PCB copper sides do the silkscreen layer ... use these files
    Preview for top board silkscreen print out for sticker papers ...​
    HPMC top board silk screen.jpg
    Preview for bottom board silkscreen printout for sticker paper ...​
    HPMC botto board silke screen.jpg
    2014-01-15 09.05.40.jpg 2014-01-15 10.20.32.jpg 2014-01-15 11.10.43.jpg
    • OR You may use this heat resistant tape to cover the whole board and open where the pads are .... OR using a permanent marker to cover all copper tracks and it will protect it from corrosion and give it a fine look ... choose a color of your own .
    heat_resistant_001_img_no360aphoto_L.jpg 250px-Permanent_ink_marker_-_chisel_tip.jpg 2014-01-16 07.08.51.jpg

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bottom board
    • requires to do these 4 surface wire jumps to the bottom layer circled in the following picture
    HPMC v1.0a bottom layer jumpers.jpg
    • I prepared the copper layer to accept this easy installation for the IC base and all components .
    Step3-460x370.jpg 2014-01-09 07.13.47.jpg

    • start welding components small one first regarding orientation ...
    2014-01-16 08.04.04.jpg 2014-01-18 06.16.20.jpg
    • Here is what you'll get after finishing bottom board .
    xxx HPMC v1.0a bottom layer copper & sikscreen.JPG
    • Now align both boards back to back and solder the through holes jumps between top and bottom board to complete there circuit ...use one male and female header or a long male header pin or any automotive pin wire terminal
    SKU039144.3.JPG index.jpg 2014-01-16 14.25.24.jpg
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Copper disk preparation :
    • The cooling coefficient of the computer processor cooling fan used is amazing, and if you are a computer hardware technician (you may ask around you ) then you know what I'm talking about .
    • First ...there will be a copper disk of 6cm diameter and 3-4mm thickness ,like this .
    il_fullxfull.159131026.jpg
    Pls. Don't use Aluminum instead of Copper ... Copper is best used to transfer heat like magic ... like every thing on advanced sensitive technologies around us ... And we will use Aluminum computer fan for dissipating this heat into air ...
    • For directing the heat to the center of the disk ...
    heat directing tword the center.JPG 2a.jpg
    • print the copper disk drilles and slots tmplate.pdf file on paper and mark the slots and use a metal saw and open 8 slots toward the center of the disk ... then drill 8x3mm holes for the MOSFET's screws like this ... align these holes perfectly .
    3.jpg 4.jpg
    • Then drill V shaped holes for the MOSFET's screws flushed top view
    2014-01-24 12.28.41.jpg 2014-01-24 12.28.12.jpg
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Top board assembly
    • important work progress steps :First of all tinning the top board copper layer ... that is a very important step because it will carry all the amps to the motor ... So ,do a leveled thin shining layer of tin and try to distribute the solder all around the mesh tracks evenly ...
    2014-01-16 14.26.08.jpg 2014-01-16 14.26.25.jpg
    • attach the diodes flushed to the surface in there places regarding there orientation ...
    HPMC v1.0a top layer copper & sikscreen.JPG
    • weld the through hole jumps and DIODS for the top board before the MOSFETs attachment .
    2014-01-16 14.27.21.jpg 2014-01-16 14.21.19.jpg
    • weld the Fuse holder to board the other side of MOSFET's ... inner space section for future easy access.
    • For mounting MOSFET's to copper disk ... don't forget to use mica insulation sheet and insulating bushing t0220 between each MOSFET and the copper disk ... like these pictures ... plus some thermal compound on both sides of the mica sheet to improve the thermal conductivity .
    Mica Insulation Sheet.jpg Thermal Compound.JPG NIPPELTO220.jpg
    • bolt each MOSFET to copper disk as previous step but not so tight like this next picture and bend each leg thick part upward ... we are here trying to solder each MOSFET from the thickest part of the leg then cut the excess part flush to the board side level .
    2014-01-22 20.13.25.jpg 2014-01-09 05.22.07.jpg
    • Now MOSFET's will set firm when soldered to the top board ... Try aligning bolts heads with the copper disk holes then solder one leg for EACH MOSFET first then use a screw driver to fasten every thing tight ... then continue soldering all MOSFET's legs .
    2014-01-23 11.19.04.jpg 2014-01-26 02.45.28.jpg
    • Remember to screw the MOSFET's back side to the copper disk very tight ... if not heat will not transfer to the copper .
    • Now you have the top board full assembled without the Fan ...
    2014-01-26 02.44.35.jpg
    • Take a good look to this picture for further easy assembling the Fan.
    Cooling copper disk assymbly.JPG 2014-01-24 12.38.08.jpg
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Attaching the CPU Fan :
    • Attach the CPU fan with bolts and screws to the 4 mounting corner holes in both boards ... use some thermal compound between the fan center core and the copper disk ...
      A normal fan like this is commonly used for old computer processor cooling ...
    article-new.jpg f.jpg

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Testing : ...
    I tested the controller on this big Bus wiper motor ...
    I Used the following steps after finishing the assembly to make a stand alone type of test for the HPMC ... powered by a 90A 12V battery charger :
    • Connected the M1 and M2 hole terminals to the motor thick wire with size 8 bolts and nuts both ends ... !!!
    • Connected the +/- hole terminals to the battery/charger with size 8 bolts and nuts both ends .
    • Connected a 5v and GND from external PSU to the Vcc-5v pin and the GND ...
    • Connect a 5v wire to the PWM pin for full PWM duty cycle signal (100% Full RPM ) .
    • Ground the D1 and D2 so the HPMC is in a full stop .
    • Get a second 5v wire and carefully touch the D1 OR D2 pins for motor forward or reverse command .
    2014-10-17 02.46.52.jpg 2014-10-17 03.01.05.jpg 2014-10-17 03.29.52.jpg

    I wish I had a bigger motor and battery to push this bridge to it's unknown maximum.
    I still don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes ... :)



    This motor controller can be used easily with big DC motors like starter motors or winch motors .

    If you have any questions Or comments ... drop me a line ...
    have a nice time every one ...

    Edit : The old pdf files are here Old pdf fils.zip
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    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  2. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    preserved ...
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  3. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Thanks mate so is this the unit we see your sim using, remember this one, cool you brought back to here, thanks, Much cheaper to build than to buy the Sabertooth 2x60 and look to be as strong may be stronger, Thanks.
  4. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    NO dear, my sim is using a VFD for a 3phase 1/2HP ac motors ... and talking about it here will confuse the readers ... :blush
    And about my sim, patient please I'll post every tiny nano details ... I'm in the middle of a war here ... I'm not going any where except that I'm dead :confused: .​
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  5. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    the best price for it is 200 LE [Egyptian pound ] including every thing (the copper disk ,the fan ,the board ,... etc.) ... FYI [6 LE = 1 USD ]
    That makes it around 34 USD for hardware . And the max time assembling it is 3hrs if you can DIY. [​IMG]
    I can list the prices in details if you like .
    Yes sure 24V is fair enough if you are using the proper MOSFETs.

    the driving IC's ir2110.pdf for a half H-bridge connection as per the datasheets can operate the high side MOSFETs voltage up to 500V [IF MOSFETS are equivalent ] ...

    and for the logical side for the signal is 5v isolated from the high side voltage is compatible with any controller .
    with some restrictions for coupling two IC's you can make Full H-Bridge driving circuit easily as you see in the pictures in first post .
    you can find the datasheet for this driving IC down here
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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  6. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    here is some tips for preparing the copper disk I would like to share :

    1- First , please don't use aluminum instead of copper [ someone asked me for that ] and I'm telling you heat moves fast through copper .
    2- After finishing the board and the drilling s don't solder any thing yet . [​IMG]
    3- 8 MOSFET holes in the board should be drilled first ( use 3mm bits ).
    4- put the disk and the board together against strong light source and center the copper disk to the 8 holes .
    5- mark these holes onto the disk with a pencil .
    6- use the same size drilling bit 3mm and complete the 8 holes for the copper disk.
    7- use a pencil and mark a big circle of 3cm diameter at the center of the disk .
    8- using a metal saw to make slots into the disk starting from it's edge till the 3cm circle marked edge ... center these slots between the holes drilled before ... [ see picture ]... slots will help directing the heat generated from each mosfet separately to the center of the disk to the attached CPU cooler above it ... keeping other mosfets cooled as it is . [​IMG]

    Graphic1.jpg copper disk temp.jpg
    9- then there you go ... continue install every thing else to the board ... when comes to mosfets just bend the legs forward to install there writings faced down to the board and the metal back is up ... and to attach them to the disk [ not the board ] you may wider the board holes to use the screw driver through them from the back side to fasten the bolts .
    - use a thermal isolating sheet and some heat compound for each mosfet to ensure a good heat conducting .
    Thermal Compound.JPG Mica Insulation Sheet.jpg NIPPELTO220.jpg
    - the easy part to attach the fan with the heat sink and centered on top above the disk [ use heat compound ] and attach fan wire to it's socket .
    article-new.jpg heat directing tword the center.JPG Cooling copper disk assymbly.JPG

    that i guess explains my idea for cooling the extra heat generated from mosfet when operating and keeping them within the operating temp .
    guys in the computer hardware field would know how much is the cooling power of this CPU fan and it's heat sink .
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    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  7. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Thanks @abdo_tahan this info is great and detailed.
    Im serious looking at building this for myself, looks like the best I have seen.
    You have my full support.
    Yes VFD support is coming soon, your information on this will be handy and respected too mate.
  8. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    I'll be more than glad to help my friend ... here
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  9. RaceRay

    RaceRay Administrator Staff Member SimAxe Beta Tester

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    Great tutorial Abdo_tahan!!!
    I made sticky of it and marked it as "tutorial".

    A few questions by me (probably i have read over it):

    Whats is the maximum current you tested successfully the hbridge?
    Theoretically "150 Amps" and practically the maximum of current without blowing it are sometimes worlds away from each other:)
    Edit: Great, found your answer
    The design is awesome and should be awarded with a price for the best looking motor driver i' ve ever seen before
    Simple effective and just beautiful!

    ... reminds me on Tony Starks Iron Man Arc Reactor:D

    tumblr_m4ef83LKw31qaewqm.jpg

    Seriously: Take care of yourself and your family!
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  10. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    Has anyone found a place to get the copper disk's at?
  11. RaceRay

    RaceRay Administrator Staff Member SimAxe Beta Tester

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  12. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Wow ... 13 EUR ... that's too much .:mad:

    why don't you go where you can find a Lathe machine and ask for a slice of copper with the needed dimensions ?
    img1194jpg4di.jpg


    Or this old pot would help ... from any scrap yard .
    11270389_3.jpg
    cut it's bottom ...


    :rolleyes::oops::p:grin:thumbs ... Thanks Mr./Tony Stark ...
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    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  13. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    This is a wonderful electronics project for a DIY'er and I "Thank You" for sharing it with us @abdo_tahan ! For someone that is just looking for a high current H-bridge and enjoys the challenge of DIY or needs to help keep the budget down this is perfect! :thumbs

    I would like to mention though that this shouldn't be considered as an alternative by members to a Sabertooth controller such as the 2X60 because they are completely different. Firstly, the Sabertooth is not an H-bridge! It has an analog mode that works in a similar fashion. But you must filter a PWM signal when using it with the analog mode and that has the effect of smoothing the signal and thereby also the motion. Therefore, the Sabertooth should not be used as an H-bridge alternative in the first place! :blush Second, the Sabertooth does the same job an H-bridge does, but it does so with its own built in micro-controller. In comparison to the code required by an Ardrino, for example, to drive an H-bridge, the code required to drive the Sabertooth is minuscule! Less code usually equates to a faster execution loop. :) And third, but yet a very careful consideration, is that the Sabertooth has built in protections that are touted to shut down the controller in the event of an out-of-perimeter condition thereby sparing it from burn out! :cool: If it does burn up somehow, it is guaranteed for at least one year officially but they have never asked me for a date to get an RMA.

    For comparison the H-bridge is about $40 in parts you say and 3 hours assembly (but probably more time than that in all). The Sabertooth is currently $189usd + $4 to ship. If you do something wrong in building the H-bridge or try to run to much current through it you could be out of almost your entire investment (not to mention start a fire!). With the Sabertooth, if you still manage to burn it out somehow, around $4 (in USA anyway) gets it shipped to Dimension Engineering and gets you a new one back ready to go! So while I think your H-bridge is great, I also think members should make the comparisons and choose what is best for them!

    On another note you forgot to mention that there are two other metals as good or better than copper to use! That being silver and gold! If you insist on copper though then members are more than welcome to send me the equivalent weight in silver or gold and I will send them back the same weight in a copper disk! Ill be watching my PM closely if anyone want's to take me up on the offer!!! :rolleyes:
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    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  14. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @BlazinH ... you presented the Sabertooth controller her in a very smoothy way ... off topic and good to bring out the competition again .
    And for comparing my little work and all great active star members in H/W or S/W with such big companies with good marketing managers / company policies / technical support / golden annual profit ... Is an Honor to me and xsimulator.net community ... thanks again .

    IMHO ... The concept of DIY in EVERY THING is not about money ... It is that you learn and put a unique touch of you inside that DIY project ... to be sent free with knowledge :nerd... and you don't worry if it is broken ... It's like your son, you know every detail, you can fix everything with a kiss ... not for a 4$ you get a new one:roll ...
    And maybe you can pay more and get a faithful son some how ... but he will not carry your DNA name ...


    capito ...:D
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    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  15. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    No competition here friend and I too enjoy DIY @abdo_tahan ! But I only have so much time and I already have plenty of other DIY projects to do that I can't just go buy like I can a motor controller! So for me it is much less expensive to just buy one after I was to pay myself for the time I would have in it to build my own (not considering the educational aspect).

    I only mentioned the Sabertooth because it was already referred to a few posts up. Several people have used the Sabertooth 2x60 like an H-bridge because of its high current capabilities only. If you do this you are wasting away some of what you paid for though and its really not the best H-bridge in its analog mode so I'm just trying to spread the word. Your controller fills the gap for those wanting a true H-bridge and want to build it themselves. The Sabertooth will handle 120 amp peaks for a few seconds at a time though and it is a dual motor controller. That makes it less than $100 per motor controlled. It is best controlled directly with serial input however.

    And actually Dimension Engineering is comprised of just a few employees. If you call and ask for John you will get the owner and the engineer of the company. However, he has designed some very intuitive products and you should definitely be proud of your work!
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  16. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

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    funny people have been using sabertooths for years as a H Bridge ?
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  17. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    1,195
    Location:
    Alexandria , Egypt
    Balance:
    7,483Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,268 / 9 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, AC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    Thanks @BlazinH ... I know that you'll come back for more ... It's a killer H-bridge here and have all the potentials needed and you know that ...
    As you said, If the Sabertooth is not best used like an h-bridge in its analog mode. Why buying it ? ... then replacing it when burned under a load of 120 amps peak for few seconds (not to mention starting a fire ) .

    It seems like you didn't read the first post well ... seriously please give it another try ... It really doesn't need any educational aspect in doing it ... it's even you can do it in much less time than you dream ...
    • Like Like x 2
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  18. RaceRay

    RaceRay Administrator Staff Member SimAxe Beta Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,617
    Occupation:
    Self-employed | Web and application development
    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Balance:
    24,483Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,214 / 10 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, SimAxe, SimforceGT
    @BlazinH may i suggest to you to open a new thread if you want to debate on principles about comparing DIY and commercial products? Dont feel offended but i think such discussion does not must be here in this project related thread:)

    Thank you mate.

    Back to topic:

    I think at a local dealer we get the cooper discs cheaper than at ebay. I will look for a cheaper source and will publish it here.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,593
    Occupation:
    CAD Detailer
    Location:
    Ellenbrook, Western Australia
    Balance:
    19,569Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,647 / 22 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK, SimforceGT, 6DOF
    I will be building 2 of these to test in the new year have total faith in the design after doing my checks, it passed them all, Sourcing parts as we speak, pcb will be tricky as it will be my first attempt at a diy 2 layer pcb.
    Thanks @abdo_tahan
    • Like Like x 1
  20. RaceRay

    RaceRay Administrator Staff Member SimAxe Beta Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Messages:
    4,617
    Occupation:
    Self-employed | Web and application development
    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Balance:
    24,483Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,214 / 10 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, SimAxe, SimforceGT
    @eaorobbie i also want to build it as prototype and for educational purposes. I plan to have the pcb professional etched, so if you like to i will try to get a quotation for a larger order.
    • Useful Useful x 1