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Feel Three affordable 3DOF Kickstarter launch coming.

Discussion in 'Commercial Simulators and Peripherie' started by traveltrousers, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Index Gold Contributor

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    I don't know. It sounds somewhat logical to me. Roll the sphere over and you can simulate sustained Gs even though you are limited to just one. Same for forward and back for accel/decel. A lot of people are happy with just shakers and shakers do add a lot to the experience even on their own. I could see the mass of the sphere and human being something a little slower to respond to side or front/back forces though. It's just another way of doing things that will have limitations just the same as what we have now. I think the best system for home use for simulating movements will always be a 6 dof with powerful motors. My 2 dof is a lesser approximation and probably so is the FeelThree. But with that range of motion in the FeelThree comes another limitation - you can't really add heave. Heave won't feel right if you are laid over on your side. Before I built my own sim I was really interested in the FeelThree but now what I want is a sixer. All are approximations, though. That's all it can really ever be.

    On the limitations of motion cancellation, I'm still waiting on that ability in SteamVR that Alan Yates told me was on the Valve roadmap - around two years ago. I know there is an alternative but until the major players see the utility in having that feature, we're stuck with what are essentially kludges. Another player that gets some buzz can only help to get that baked-in support that should have been there a long time ago.
  2. runar totland

    runar totland New Member

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    No need to simulate the g-force, you get a 100% 1G when tilted back 90 degrees.;-)

    When added along with VR, butkicker and sound... I think it will be very convinving. You will experience >4x more Gs than in a actuator-sim with a tilt of 20+/-.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  3. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Convincing motion simulation involves more than using gravity in an attempt to simulate g-forces. 1G is a very weak force when attempting simulation of many times that. What most fail to realize is that motion simulation is as much if not more about how your body gets moved in real life vs. how it gets moved in a simulator. So while more tilting produces larger G forces than less it also causes your body to be moved in unnatural ways to do it. That’s not to mention the latency induced in the motion when forces change abruptly.
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  4. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Index Gold Contributor

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    Many cars can’t hit or hold even 1G of cornering force. Performance cars can, and Indy cars can go over 5 that I found. Probably even higher. But not all of us simulate Indy cars. Airplanes are a whole different story and generally aren’t trying to simulate high front/back or side G loads.

    The part about how your body gets moved to put you in position is valid but that happens in all of our sims. My 2 dof can simulate some forces and movements but it’s an approximation at best and there are movements at the back end (washout) of the actual/desired movement that serve to get you recovered from the desired movement and the sim recentered. But the motion even in a 6 dof is still an approximation and still takes prelimiary motion to simulate sustained Gs.

    The rotation to simulate Gs in the Feel Three will get more noticeable as the onset of Gs gets faster but nothing says you have to roll full on your side or back and sustain 1 G or build that fast. In VR, I think many of us have the motions turned way down anyway.

    And for all the inaccuracies and approximations, my 2 dof is still pretty convincing even though in the motion sim world it’s almost the least accurate simulation of real world forces. To some extent, what seems more important is that you feel something and the brain then makes it fit. It’s why people here can build a rig and then run it for some time with axes backwards until they post a video and someone notices.

    Feel Three is just another approximation. It’s a 3 dof with the motion axis just at the center of the sphere instead of below our seat. It has advantages and disadvantages, and is better at some motions than others. Just like all of our sims.
  5. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    I'm just speaking from my own experience. My first motion rig had a lot of range and my feet got swung around a lot. But it was designed for flight only so I liked it okay for that. But once I learned I could get motion from some racing titles also I had to try that too. It was still great to me at first but as time went on I more and more noticed how my feet being swung around just didn't feel right in a racing simulator and it began to bother me more and more. Since airplanes actually rotate and cars don't it makes perfect since to me now as to why I stated feeling that way. But yes motion simulation is all about finding the proper balance between simulating G's and simulating body position that works best for you. Btw, my first rigs cog was just above my belly button.

    To further elaborate this higher cog allows for faster transitions to take place without it snapping you back but your butt gets swung some too. And even though you don’t have vestibules in your ass or feet the movement is still perceivable.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  6. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I had tried such large roll/pitch 6dof system (Ford factory 6dof sim) at 2017 Chicago auto show.
    Like others, I thought this seems a best way actually use Gravity to sim lateral g- and acceleration/braking g.
    But I was not impressed. I thought I could feel lateral-g naturally while corning at high speed. The movement was just too big and too fast I think that messed up my inner ear sensor:
    “There are two sets of end organs in the inner ear, or labyrinth: the semicircular canals, which respond to rotational movements (angular acceleration); and the utricle and saccule within the vestibule, which respond to changes in the position of the head with respect to gravity (linear acceleration).”
    I think one can tune the SimTool for one's DIY 6dof with very large roll/pitch movement for g too (I asked this question before, possible? ---- SimTool uses sway for lateral g and surge for acc/braking g).

    I actually prefer my seat mover than Ford factory 6dof sim. seat mover is not sim g-force, rather, it sim an effect of g-force. Such effect refers to neuromuscular tension on the arms, body, and neck caused by changing distance between arms and steering wheel, and fixed screen due to the seat moving, so that your body will fight to balance subconsciously (keep in center--- screen center) while cornering just as if drive a real race car. Those feels usually we don't consciously think because of building in our muscle memory (unconscious). At high speed cornering, seat mover looks unrealistic but such effect is very real. This is particularly effective for GT type racing cars. I understand that seat mover may not suitable for F1 type cars, where driver's body confined within a cabin.
    I upgraded my rig, 2x D-box style chassis mover plus seat mover on top. I did quick experiement other day took my car to a large empty parking lot trying sharp turning at relatively high speed. I think I did at <0.8g I paid more attention on my arms, body and neck feels. I can tell that the simulating effects on the motion rig actually feel pretty real though. Just thought to share....
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  7. Mr-oven

    Mr-oven Mr-oven

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    Almost a year later...
    Wondering if @Spit40 got his demo?
    Did @runar totland join the Kickstarter and have some up to date news?
    Does anyone have a commercial motion sim that works great with elite dangerous?
    Did Oculus ever agree to work with us on motion cancellation?
    @traveltrousers are you there?
  8. runar totland

    runar totland New Member

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    I am kickstarter backer #2 on the Feel Three. :-D Follow every update with over-the-top interest.

    Mark is working hard on the project. It is delayed compared to initial plan, but progress seem good. Quality is the important thing.

    Some delays with China manufacturers, but most of this is sorted out I think. Had to go to China to get the triangles to the sphere stamped, was way to expensive in UK. Sorting out stamping and tolerance/specs etc. took a long time. He had to make several trips to Cina in person to sort things out (if I don't remember wrong).

    Now I think the stamped parts are ok, rollers are done (was some issues where the manufacturer wanted him to swap to cheaper material. Mark wasnt tricked). Motor drivers are ok. Dont know about the rest of the parts.

    Mark has promised E: D will work fine, they have found a way to secure that it works stable and doesnt break, I think.. or at least had some ideas on how to fix this for the Feel Three.

    At the moment Mark is looking for a locatiom in London where he can start assembly of units.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  9. Mr-oven

    Mr-oven Mr-oven

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    Hey, really appreciate your speedy response.
    I fully understand these projects often run into unforseen delays.
    From what I've read Mark seems fully committed to this and I would love to see it succeed.
    I used to own a next level V3 which was great for racing and gentle aviation but unfortunately did not support Elite dangerous which is my main game by a long shot.
    I'm currently looking at dof reality and NJ motion options, both of which have a lot of customer opinion on these threads.
    Perhaps I'll wait a few more months and see how feel three progresses.
    @traveltrousers , would be nice to get a detailed update for the good folks on this forum.
  10. Mechromancer

    Mechromancer Member

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    Wow...I didn't realize that Next Level didn't support ED. Do you mean "natively"? FDev has refused to include telemetry data in their data output, so actually, I don't think anyone "natively" supports ED.

    Some great members here have supported it through a plugin that has to constantly be updated because almost any ED update breaks the motion. :\
  11. Mr-oven

    Mr-oven Mr-oven

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    The Next Level V3 is a fantastic piece of kit.
    It's a closed system software wise, you can't use simtools, only their software which has good support for many games but they could never get elite dangerous to work.
  12. Mechromancer

    Mechromancer Member

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    Wow... Bummer.

    Thanx for the info.