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Experimental DCS Plugin ready for testing

Discussion in 'Digital Combat Simulators (DCS)' started by Dirty, Jun 28, 2019.

  1. WLuser

    WLuser New Member Gold Contributor

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    hey @Dirty how can i change the plugin & export.lua so that pitch and roll are relative to position and not by acceleration?
  2. WLuser

    WLuser New Member Gold Contributor

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    i like to keep the angular data for yaw.. but have normal pitch and roll telemetry...
  3. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    I can send you a custom export script. I should be able to do it some time over the next days. Send me a PM in case I forget.

    Dirty :)
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  4. WLuser

    WLuser New Member Gold Contributor

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    would appreciate it very much @Dirty !!
  5. gianlu320

    gianlu320 Member Gold Contributor

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    @Dirty

    I would be interested as well in this custom export script.
    Any chance I could try it when ready?

    And thanks a lot for what you are doing for all of us
  6. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    In the next version of the plugin I will use an export script in which the user can choose whether he wants angular rates or Euler angles exported. You can even choose individual axis to be Euler or angular rate.

    I thought I had v0.09 ready last week, when my top secret plugin test team reported that I have screwed things up completely:confused:. Now I am stuck in an Amsterdam Coffeeshop for at least another week and can't test/code/publish.

    I guess late August will bring the new version with the features you were asking for.
    :)
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  7. gianlu320

    gianlu320 Member Gold Contributor

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    This is amazing news.
    Once again thanks a lot for continuing to improve this plugin.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    @Dirty May I ask, why and how are Euler Angles still useful?

    Perhaps if I thought hard on it I'd come up with something, but I feel like I had *someone* do this to me with a video about why Euler Angles in motion simulation software are evil! =P

    Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that you said Euler Angles are always bad and never useful without exception. That's just how I remember it!

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  9. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    Hey Trip :)

    nice to see you're getting active again. Your post did make me smile, because I remember back a few yers ago I had the impression that the vast majority of people used Euler angles to drive their sims and @hexpod (jokingly) started calling me The heretic.

    You said it: Euler angles are not bad per se. They are a great way to express the orientation of the vehicle in relation to geographic north and the horizon. They are great when it comes to navigation. If you want to determine your position/orientation these are the angles you need. Heading, pitch and roll tell you not just how you are oriented in space, but also a lot about where you're going. It's just that geographic north and the horizon have close to nothing to do with what a person on a vehicle feels.

    With just a little bit of creativity you can create a scenario that highlight their limitations for motion cueing: If you are going uphill in a car you might want your sim to tilt up ("Eau Rouge" in Formula1), but when you step on the brake, you as the driver will still be thrown forward as if the sim was tilted WAY down.

    The reason why I thought I include them in the next version of the script is because people often ask for them and I don't want to lecture them. I will make the default to be angular rates and if someone would want Euler angles, they can just set a boolean to false and they will get Euler angles exported :).

    There might be an edge case where they come in handy: While the vehicle is static (or close to) Euler angles can be of some use. Here's what I wrote about it in another thread:

    The problem for Cruden was, among others, that with the classic algorithm when the vehicle comes to a full stop, you will get a forward jolt just in the moment when you're standing still. That's because all of a sudden the de-celeration is gone, which in the HP filter will be treated like an ac-celeration. So now you have a situation where the vehicle is static, but the sim is still moving. That was irritating to drivers and was "corrected". I am not sure exactly how they do it, but I have a few ideas to test. One of them is that maybe they fade-over to orientation cueing shortly before coming to a halt. How that affects the opposite acceleration-scenario is not described unfortunately.

    Here's the link.

    Cheers,... Dirty :)
  10. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    Stuff like that really does make us want to know! I had bought tickets to go to the big flight sim convention in Vegas this year so I could try out the ACME DMS (among other things) myself and see how they've got it programmed and how it feels. Unfortunately COVID caused the event to be cancelled. D=

    Their example reminds me of a problem I always had (with Ian's BFF that I used for the first couple years anyway). When I landed and the aircraft came to a stop my 6DOF sim would still be pitched nose down from braking, and only very slowly wash out to neutral while I was sitting still. I imagine I could have got rid of it by setting really fast on-ground washout, but then I'd lose the nice cues for the takeoff acceleration and braking after landing. I really disliked that.
  11. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    Yeah, I think that's a symptom of the same problem. I think maybe they are fading over to orientation cueing or they have adaptive filters. I will certainly start playing around with both ideas, but for now I will tune and polish the algorithm in a conventional way. There is still a lot to learn and understand about the behavior of those filters.

    Dirty :)
  12. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    @Dirty I also intend to write a long post clearly explaining in language I think most everyone will be able to understand how motion simulation, proper motion cues, and false cues work. I am good at taking technical information and explaining it clearly.

    I already have several pages of it written up on my computer. Once it is done I hope it may be worthy of a "sticky", and the intent is for it to be a place to point people when they ask these questions.

    The most difficult part of writing it is choosing the formatting as it will be LONG. After I wrote what I already have I decided I think I might totally change the format, and instead of explaining the problems and solutions as per usual I might break it up into sections specific to certain types of cues with title lines so people can find answers to specific questions like "what about uncoordinated turns?" without reading the entire thing. Main sections like "Flight- Rolls", "Racing- turns", and then a sort of appendix with topics like "Flight- uncoordinated turns", "Hills", "A parked taildragger", etc.

    For anyone reading this who has asked that question or one like it, don't feel bad! I myself raised EXACTLY that example as an objection when I was early in my process of learning these things from Dirty a year or so ago. =)

    One of the bits I feel like I can't help being long is false cues from repositioning a Stewart Platform in situations like going from a hard left turn in a race car, instantaneously into a hard right turn.

    Really a video series using diagrams and animations would be ideal. Maybe I'll think about doing it that way as well. I do want to start making YouTube content again.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  13. gianlu320

    gianlu320 Member Gold Contributor

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    Sorry for the stupid question
    How do I update from v0.8 to 0.9?
    I mean I know I have to use the plugin updater but am I going to loose my simtools axis setting or min max tuning Center values?
    What files do I need to save before updating the plugin?
  14. Bastiuscha

    Bastiuscha Active Member Gold Contributor

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    I haven't lost any settings. But it's never bad, to save your settings. In Game Manager Axsis assignment, you can save your profile. Of the Tunning Center Values, i simply take screenshots. There are for sure better ways, but this is my way to go. :D
  15. gianlu320

    gianlu320 Member Gold Contributor

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    Thanks for the answer
    I will take pictures as well
  16. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    Yeah, update simply via the PluginUpdater. Afaik, settings should not be affected.

    You're gonna laugh now, but I cannot tell you anything about SimTools. I have absolutely no idea :) I don't use it and never have. I know this is kinda embarrassing, but I really don't have the slightest clue beyond my plugin :-D :blush
  17. gianlu320

    gianlu320 Member Gold Contributor

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    Thanks a lot
    Will take pictures of my settings as a precaution and then I will update.
  18. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Except for version changes you can just install SimTools updates one over the other.

    You can backup SimTools settings, see the FAQs here: https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...thout-loosing-your-profiles-and-settings.160/
  19. T R Para

    T R Para i make stuff up Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I installed version .9 for dcs. When I bank the plane (TF51) I get the proper roll but when the joystick gets centered the platform goes back to level even though the aircraft is still in a bank... The Value1 plug in keeps the proper bank of the plane as I return the stick to neutral.. What am I doing wrong?...
  20. Dirty

    Dirty Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    You are doing nothing wrong, but everything right :) In this plugin the angular rates (not angles) are being used for motion cueing. You should run them through a combination of a HP and LP filter. I don't know for sure, but I think SimTools' "Washout" is exactly that.

    If you absolutely insist on using Euler angles instead, you can open the export script that resides in SavedGames/DCS/Scripts/Hooks and set these three variables to true:

    Code:
    YouAbsolutelyInsistOnUsingEulerAnglesOnYawEvenThoughThatMakesNoFuckinSense = true
    YouAbsolutelyInsistOnUsingEulerAnglesOnPitchEvenThoughThatMakesNoFuckinSense = true
    YouAbsolutelyInsistOnUsingEulerAnglesOnRollEvenThoughThatMakesNoFuckinSense = true
    It will give you Euler angles exported (Yaw, Pitch, Roll). Try it out and see what happens during...
    1. a loop
    2. a roll
    3. a heading change through 359°->001°.

    Cheers,... Dirty :)
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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020