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Dreaming a new sim ODrive Turnigy 190kv

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by gigi, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    This community is incredible! It is a continual birth of innovative ideas, unthinkable solutions that someone thinks and implements. I have been following and admiring SilentChill for some time and on several occasions but you have helped like many other users here. Now I've just see his new project and also the project by @PeterW and @Carelsbergh_Stijn. Wauuu!
    I think ... incredible ... Well done good ... I love your inventiveness. I don't think my wife is happy that you exist! With your ideas you make me spend sleepless nights, tease my imagination and just when I'm about to decide not to make other sims I read your projects and a light bulb comes on and I want to make it happen. This new project seems even more innovative to me than the sfx100 that I had looked at with attention and enthusiasm, thanks also to the fact that it is complete and very well explained in every detail, but that seems to me rather limited in the sense that all the sims are all realizable equal perhaps due to the fact that the actuators are only pull and not pull / push. In general I don't like copy paste. Given my limited skills I definitely need to copy but before pasting I always want to change it and use some of my inventiveness.
    Unfortunately, with the sfx100 project I can't. Those actuators are push is not pull while I would like push / pull. I also don't know how to use CAD, so I wouldn't even know how to create the components to modify them.
    At this point I'm thinking of opening a new project and obviously a new thread ... I don't want to pollute SilentChill and threads and @PeterW and @Carelsbergh_Stijn. it wouldn't be correct. But before opening a new thread with the project I need to understand the feasibility. For this I allow myself to ask an opinion .... first of all to them and publicly thinking that your answers can serve not only me but also other simbuilders.
    So my last project is this:
    Inspiration:
    Result: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/my-third-project-4-dof.13285/page-2#post-178190


    I think the result is very good. Using attention, respecting the geometries suggested by other users and using good materials, the SIM looks ok, very reactive and immersive.

    From my point of view the solution I adopted is so successful that I would now like to re-implement a new one that used BLVC motors with the same geometries. So a sim almost identical but with BLVC engines
    Is it madness?
    The questions I ask myself are these?
    1) the actuator must be shorter. In the project I saw a fully extended actuator length of 1379mm and a completely closed 879mm.
    The TRANSTECNO gearmotors I used in my project project mounted 45 mm long levers and have a range of 90 °. This means that their excursion is 70 mm. this makes me think that making an actuator with 100 mm travel. it would be enough. According to you, an actuator built according to your project and with a range of 100mm. how long could it be altogether? Is it above all feasible?
    2) The engines I used in my last sim were transtecno, they had a linear speed of about 0.353 m / s (speed 75rpm radius 45mm) but due to their size I suppose they had a great inertia which greatly reduces this value. The SFX100s seem to me to have a speed of 0.245 mm / s. I don't think they have problems with inertia. I can say however that seeing them work in many videos are really very very reactive and fast as well as detailed. It seems that they can really replicate every single detail of the road. The project with BLDC turnigy SK3 engine and 1605 worm screw that reaches speed? I imagine that there are no major problems of inertia but can they be as detailed and responsive as the sfx100? So far I haven't been able to see many videos of the BLDC actuators and I haven't picked up if they really are reactive
    3) If I decide to implement this project, can you provide me with the files to make the pieces with the 3D printer? I have a friend who could print but I don't know how to make the stl files since I don't know how to use the autocad or design programs

    I wait your opinions. Thanks
    gigi
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  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. SilentChill

    SilentChill Problem Maker

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I'll be more than happy to share all my files once I have got mine up and running and I know its going to hold together. DOnt want to waste anyones time and money printing a piece of crap :)

    If it does work anyone will be able to make these if you have some basic tools and a 3D printer.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    thanks silentchill i apreciate this you want avoid that others loose time and money for build parts that you haven’t at the moment tested.
    regarding my idea of 4motors sim do you think that 4 turnigy actuator like the one of your new project should be ok? the sim including seat, structure,pedals and osw should be 150kg. And...as for me 100 mm of range should be eough....how can be reduct the lenght of actuator?
    thanks
  5. PeterW

    PeterW alias Wickie

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    Hi gigi
    nice to hear that you maybe want to go the Odrive-way!
    Indeed this is a new territory and room for lot of creativity - thats what you want.

    Regarding your questions its difficult to give fast answers because there is so much to say. Too little time at the moment.
    I try to make it short:
    1) making a short actuator is possible, but with the motor in line it will be maybe not as short as you want. I think not shorter than 45cm (without joints and retracted rod). There is a shorter version from a member of the Odrive community called "Zennix". Pls have a look to his build - it could be build shorter.
    https://discourse.odriverobotics.com/t/simulator-rig-with-odrive/848?u=wickie

    2) Regarding acceleration and speed there is a great motor guide in the Odrive-forum. Pls see:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12vzz7XVEK6YNIOqH0jAz51F5VUpc-lJEs3mmkWP1H4Y/edit#gid=0

    3) my 3d files are opimized for a full metal actuator version. Maybe after my project is ready I will try to design a similar actuator with 3D printed parts....but that will take time...
    I think in your case you could go SilentChill's way. But I would wait for his first load tests. Also the Zennix-actuator is easier to build with 3D printed parts.

    Finally, I have to say someting important: The Odrive is a really great thing, but the firmware isnt completely ready for use with endswitches. This will be hopefully in a few weeks.
    Also working with Odrive (flashing, finding and changing the correct parameters) is sometimes a real pain and time consuming - except you are a software speciallist.
    In case you dont have strong nerves - wait until base work is done.....
    kind regards
    Wickie
  6. pmvcda

    pmvcda aka FlyPT

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    Not ODrive, but they can give you an idea of how reactive bldc can be:
    • Like Like x 1
  7. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    Hi Peter thank you very much for your intervention.
    I believe a lot in your project, for several reasons. The first is that you see that both you and the silentchill you are working hard trying to make a sim with the right accuracy and attention to
    details. The second reason is because I strongly believe in the performance of brushless motors. The third reason is the video that showed me yesterday PMVCDA posted me is awesome. Wide movements but at the same time great responsiveness. Of course the video showed the sim without load but I am convinced that it will not change things the load of the drivers (me 8oKg)
    Of course I don't have your expertise I don't know how to use CAD, I don't have a 3D printer and I have very little notions of elettronics. For this reason it is certainly appropriate that at this stage I follow your projects without starting nothing. So I definitely have no hurry. For the moment I'll start looking for the main ones components that I will need, first and foremost the motors, the boards, the worm screws, etc. . But I it's also necessary I carefully re-evaluate the possibility of making a 6dof instead of a 4dof like that I have already realized. I really like my 4 dof. It's compact, it's not high, in my opinion it moves well. The 6dof is definitely a better project, which I never wanted to go into, perhaps frightened of his complexity and perhaps also because, rightly or wrongly, I have always seen it more suitable for a flight simulator than to a guide. Your projects show high excursions. Is the intent to replicate the G force? Can you do it?

    One thing I want to ask you. Silentchill uses skig 190Kv turnigy engines, you KEDA 63-64 instead. In the HobbyKing site the Keda 63-64 (or named kd-53-30) are discontinued. Do you know where I can find Them?
    Thanks
    gigi
  8. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    Hi PMVCDA Thank You very much
    it's really awesome. even if the video is made with the simulator without the pilot on board I see amplitude of movements and a fantastic reactivity and detail
  9. pmvcda

    pmvcda aka FlyPT

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    Yes, give me some more time, I will make a video with me and a monitor on the rig.
    But in my channel there's an early video with me on the rig. Almost turning it!

  10. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    wow thanks reallu impressive!
    Wich motor did you use? I see that silentchill use turnigy Sk3 and Peter W use Keda 63-64. Keda are ceaper but in hobbyking shop are discontinued
  11. pmvcda

    pmvcda aka FlyPT

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    This one: https://en.nanotec.com/products/1833-db59c024035-a/

    More expensive, but I think more durable. Can't even get them hot.
    And I control them with the internal hall sensor. So there's no encoder, but I need the hall output from the motor.
  12. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    Thank you guys for your support.
    One another questions:
    I see that the system sfx100 use motor 90ST-M02430 220V 750W that have 3000rpm and have a rated torque of 2.4 Nm. 4 actuators build with these motors can easily move 200kg+ rigs and have a velocity of 245mm/s .
    Reading the motor guide in the Odrive-forum that PeterW kindly post me I see that
    for example KEDA 63-64 190Kv have a torque 2,18 . using the same formula I calculated that the TURNIGY SK3 190Kv engine has a torque of 2.83 Nm (8,269933431*max current/kv).
    So can we say that N°4 turnigy SK3 are able to support a rig that weighs 200Kg even moving it at a speed higher than that of the actuators built with 90ST-M02430 220V 750W?
    It seems incredible to me that these small brushless motors can have so much strength and speed and I wonder if there is something wrong with my reasoning
    And this is the reason that drives the daredevils Silentchill, PeterW ecc. to build a sim using these brushless motors instead of 90ST-M02430. Of course there is certainly an advantage of smaller dimensions and also of economic savings but the most important reason is that these small brushless motors are powerful and fast as much as if not more?
    Thanks for your reply
  13. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    The main concern I have using physically smaller motors is heat dissipation. The advantage is less inertia. But without considering everything, at 48v they also need 4 times the amperage of the 90ST-M02430 220V further increasing heat generated. So I imagine proper cooling is a must if your attempting to use them continuously even though they're brushless.
  14. gigi

    gigi Active Member

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    hallo blazinh, thank you first of all for your intervention. but apart from the problem of the heat generated and therefore of the need for a careful system of dissipation of it, is the reasoning I expressed correct? I was looking right now at the turnigy sk3 6374 149Kv. This motor has a 3.74Nm rated torque and a 7.77Nm peak torque and 6500rpm with 44V input. It has more torque than, has twice the speed and a definitely lower inertia than the 90ST-M02430
  15. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    On second thought after finding the ODrive motor guide along with your additional info, I'm not sure if they have an inertia advantage now considering they run at over twice the rpm of the 90ST-M02430. I think the inertia would have to be less than 1/2 the inertia of the 90ST-M02430 to even be equal but it depends on the maximum speed that you need to run either motor at to get the maximum actuator speed you want.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019 at 21:08