1. For downloading SimTools plugins you need a Download Package. Get it with virtual coins that you receive for forum activity or Buy Download Package - We have a zero Spam tolerance so read our forum rules first.

    Buy Now a Download Plan!
  2. Do not try to cheat our system and do not post an unnecessary amount of useless posts only to earn credits here. We have a zero spam tolerance policy and this will cause a ban of your user account. Otherwise we wish you a pleasant stay here! Read the forum rules
  3. We have a few rules which you need to read and accept before posting anything here! Following these rules will keep the forum clean and your stay pleasant. Do not follow these rules can lead to permanent exclusion from this website: Read the forum rules.
    Are you a company? Read our company rules

Building a Proper Motion Seat Base For SCN5's

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by bvillersjr, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. pitstopp

    pitstopp Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Dortmund
    Balance:
    578Coins
    Ratings:
    +55 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, SCN5, SimforceGT
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    Thank you for these helpfull Information!

    but one question : What is the dimension from center of pivot to top of ball joint? ( measured horizontal)
    It is the dimension corrosponding to 28.50 from center of pivot to center of rear bar.

    This would help me to fineadjust my rig.

    Regards
    Kai
  2. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Balance:
    391Coins
    Ratings:
    +21 / 1 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's


    Hi Kai,

    I'm not current able to measure this precisely, but it should be approximately 14 to 14.5

    :cheers:
  3. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    @bvillersjr Bernard:

    What is the max load (lbs) of the black neoprene rubbers that you used to absorb the shock of the actuators at the bottom of the cockpit rack?


    Thx!

    Bleco
  4. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Balance:
    391Coins
    Ratings:
    +21 / 1 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    Depending on the brand that you purchase, I would suggest between 80- and 110lbs assuming that you use similar actuator angles to mine. Also, whether or not you have inline dampeners will effect the hardness requirement.

    If you have inline dampeners, you can use lower weight vibration mounts and get more dampening. If you do not have inline dampeners, you can actually split the vibration mount if you use too soft of a vibration mount.

    I believe that Ledfoot actually broke a 110lb vibration mount before he had inline dampeners, but I suspect that this was due to the design and quality of the product.

    @Ledfoot, can you comment on this further?
  5. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's


    Thx for the quick reply, I am not planning to use inline dampeners for the moment but I will make sure to build my setup with optimal actuators angles.

    Bleco
  6. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    What are called these 2 fittings ? balljoints ?

    And for which application can I found them? cars ?

    Thx!

    Bleco
  7. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Seat Pivot

    What is the best option ? I saw all kinds of setups but I am really not sure ...

    I was wondering what kind of feeling was obtained with universal U joints ?

    Is the movement fluid enouph to be realistic ?


    Thx!

    Bleco
  8. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Balance:
    391Coins
    Ratings:
    +21 / 1 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    Hi guys,

    It's nice to see some more SCN5 based projects!

    Yes, these are called ball joints. Some other DIY users have also chosen to use rod ends. Ball joints are my preference.

    These are similar to the ball joints that I use, however, there are literally dozens that look just like this. I have tried several. I stopped trying them when I finally found one that didn't develop slop. Unfortunately, my supplier is out of stock currently :(

    With regard to the universal joint, it is definitely the best way to achieve quality motion for this style of simulator. This is not to say that the Frex style rubber nub will not work. Simulators are much like automobiles in that you can buy many subtle add-ons that improve the overall performance. The upgrade from a rubber nub to a ball joint is a noticable improvement.

    Best of luck with your build.

    :cheers:
  9. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    @bvillersjr Thx again for answering! Can you tell me what size of u-joint I should buy?

    Any other members using universal U Joint as pivot ?


    Bleco
  10. FAG

    FAG New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    Occupation:
    Perm/Russia
    Balance:
    413Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  11. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    @FAG Thx for the pics, interesting to see differents setups

    Is this type of U-Joint can be good ? or it should be bigger?

    [​IMG]

    Overall lenght 5
    Hub external diameter: 1 5/8
    Max angle 30 degrees
    Material: Cast steel
  12. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Balance:
    391Coins
    Ratings:
    +21 / 1 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    The real universal joint pictured above will of course be the longer lasting item with the smoothest movement. The bell cup designs tend to wear and develop slop over time. It probably will depend on the price that you are able to get them for whether it makes sense or not.

    In my case, I have simulators in arcades where they are used all day long and need to be virtually manitenance free for years, so an actual Universal joint is the obvious choice.

    The other advantage of the universal joint is that inherently prevents rotation, so you do not need to buy additional ball joints and rods and rig them up to prevent the rotation.

    Please keep in mind that regardless of the solution that you choose, that rotation can result in actuator damage and must be eliminated!
  13. bleco

    bleco Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Occupation:
    IT Problem Coordinator
    Location:
    Montréal, Canada
    Balance:
    365Coins
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Re: Building a Proper Motion Base For SCN5's

    you are very helpfull, thank you very much. I can have this U-joint for 40$ us ... I think it's good, I will order it ...
  14. Fahim

    Fahim Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Messages:
    423
    Balance:
    259Coins
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
  15. Thirsty

    Thirsty Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2013
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Balance:
    593Coins
    Ratings:
    +54 / 0 / -0
    I'm designing a simxperience style motion rig atm and there's a thing I'm not sure how to handle. The longer the vertical distance between top of seat surface and centre joint under the seat the more the seat and driver moves closer or further afar to/from the pedals.
    Is it right to say the best thing you can do is keeping the distance short in order to avoid that? I mean on the one hand it's a good thing keeping the distance to the pedals the same, but on the other that movement back and forth of your backside might be an important part of the sensation as well. I'm not talking about the tilt or the movement of your upper body here. I'm using ACAD and model my rig and figured with a difference in height of 160mm the seat moves laterally back and forth approx. 16mm.
    I'd think the main thing of that concept is the tilt and not the lateral movement and therefore I'd move the seat as close as possible down to the joint.
    Dunno, what do you think?

    Simxperience won't sell their joint separately so I have to source it elsewhere. I'm considering a front lower ball joint from a car like this ones:
    http://www.ebay.de/itm/230854660991?ssP ... 1438.l2648
    Not 100% sure whether they allow for enough tilt. It's easy to mount and very short as well which is good.
    What do you think?

    Cheers
  16. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,582
    Occupation:
    CAD Detailer
    Location:
    Ellenbrook, Western Australia
    Balance:
    20,058Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,664 / 22 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK, SimforceGT, 6DOF
    Go to the wreckers mate and pick up a car tail shaft and cut the end off. Longevity and serviceable .
    Beware of loading the scn5 up with too much weight, same speeds can be achieved with out scn5 these days and for half the price too and no special adapters or power supplies needed either.
  17. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    What do you suggest for motion then as an alternative to SCN5?
  18. Thirsty

    Thirsty Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2013
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Balance:
    593Coins
    Ratings:
    +54 / 0 / -0
    Yeah, I might get a steering shaft knuckle. There's a power steering work shop around the corner where I can get one for little money.
    I'm thinking about modding it a bit - means cutting a bit off on one end and weld a plate on. You think that might affect its function - I mean the heat due to the welding?
    I guess you have to have a good knowledge about actuators and the whole thing if you source your actuators and the software controlling them separately, don't you? I don't really have a good understanding about that.
    A mate of mine built himself a diy motion rig with simxperience's actuators. I wanna copy what he's got and he can get me even all the car profiles. Without him I'd be too scared I messed it up.
    Will try to keep the weight down.
    Are you actually agreeing on keeping the joint under the seat as close as possible to the seat surface in order to avoid the distance to the pedals changing too much?
    Cheers
  19. eaorobbie

    eaorobbie Well-Known Member Staff Member SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,582
    Occupation:
    CAD Detailer
    Location:
    Ellenbrook, Western Australia
    Balance:
    20,058Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,664 / 22 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK, SimforceGT, 6DOF
    I have used a torana steering knuckle before its just a small uni joint same as a tail shaft one simular to the picture above, as Bernard has stated :thbup: , rotational movement will kill the scn5's, or this joint really needs to be strong as possible and allow no rotation of the seat or the scn5's will load up the wrong way and eventually snap the little connecting pin inside them, and its a bugger to fix them, but can be done.

    I actually use a seat mover at the moment but have minimised the overall movement to about 80mm on the motors, its matter of finding a nice point, with a seat mover you are simulating what is happening inside the cabin, i.e. your movement in the seat, so the movements are quite small, no big angles or it becomes really unrealistic.

    The truth if you don't have the expertise to copy the simx stuff, I would invest in buying the kit from Bernard to save any issue :thbup: , yes I have built them before but don't like the resulting movements and for $800 I can make a whole rig that moves faster and harder than a scn5 can today, proven on several sims but for ease of use and quality of components the scn5 is hard to beat.

    The centre of the knuckle needs to be approx. under 100mm from the underside of chair to the centre of the knuckle to minimise the weight transfer to the scn5's and because you are not using large movements , i.e. about 5-7deg of tilt the distance it moves away is not really noticeable at all. Minimising this distance will keep your scn5 safe.

    They are expensive but proven to be the ducks n**ts in a professional looking sim. :clap:
    These days we have high speed worm gears that push way faster and harder but electronics and other bits can make it a little harder for a newbie to use.

    Copy ya mates unit, if his works nicely then do it. Don't re invent it. :cheers:
  20. Thirsty

    Thirsty Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2013
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Balance:
    593Coins
    Ratings:
    +54 / 0 / -0
    Cheers eaorobbie.

    Ok, so I'll try to keep it under 100mm. Got myself this steering shaft knuckle:

    P1000363.JPG

    It's 120mm long (one side 55mm, the other 65mm). See how I'm going with the seat - might shorten it on one side in order to get the centre closer to my backside.
    I'm gonna install 2 threaded rods with rod ends on 45deg to prevent the seat from rotating - have a look at this one:

    P1000321edit.jpg

    What do you think about simxperience's heavy duty actuators? They are a bit slower apparently (maybe still fast enough), but they might last a bit longer.

    Cheers