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Adding 2DOF motion to my 80/20 GS-4 Rig

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by HoiHman, Feb 4, 2015.

  1. Avenga76

    Avenga76 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Yes, the Motion Dynamics motors are plenty fast enough when attached to a 25:1 gearbox, and they are the best match for the JRK, and they work great for most simulators BUT because of the weight of the GS-4 plus the steep angle of the arms he wants to use a 50:1 or 60:1 gearbox to get more torque IF you put the motor from the Motion Dynamics motor on to the a 50:1 gearbox THEN it would be too slow for motion. Then and only then is it too slow.

    Because he wants a 50:1 or 60:1 ratio gearbox then you have no choice but to use a faster motor, then you will run in to the problems with the JRK.
  2. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    There are a number of factors at play, the RPM, the available torque, CTC of the lever on the motor shaft and design leverage. It is the linear speed and effective torque that matter, see here for more info: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/calculating-basic-linear-speed-and-forces.89/

    Using a different example as @Pit explains winches are very slow RPM but have a lot of available torque, so you can dramatically lengthen the CTC of the lever on the motor shaft for high linear speed response.

    I don't find the motor supplier file that helpful, as it assumes 24V. Basically what you could look for in the PDF is the equivalent of 200-320W, 3200-3600 RPM, 50 or 60:1 ratio box with metal gears, which depending on the combination would have 30-60NM torque.
  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Again I disagree as I am using 60:1 on 3600RPM motors and don't think that is too slow, as long as you use a suitable CTC, it is a question of torque and linear speed, not shaft RPM. Yes a compact design and weight come into play as to how much leverage you can and can't use.

    To be honest I suspect you could use the 3600RPM/25:1 with the design he has at around 40-50mm CTC. I know @bsft has people up to 100kg on his desk racers, which have a shorter length to the pivot and use 40mm CTC with 3600RPM/25:1.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  4. Avenga76

    Avenga76 Well-Known Member

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    Yes you could go with a longer CTC. That is what I did on my rig to keep up my linear speed. I think I went for 75mm CTC because my output shaft speed is around 100rpm.

    I was just worried about running long levers on such a compact design.

    The rig was heavy enough to damage the SCN6 so I think you will need some beefy motors for it.
  5. SilentChill

    SilentChill Problem Maker

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  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    This is to give some comparable context.

    A SCN6 runs 200mm/sec max. speed, which is a linear velocity of 0.2 m/s: http://miraiintertech.com/home/scn6.php

    A SCN 5 runs 400mm/sec max. speed, which is a linear velocity of 0.4 m/s: http://miraiintertech.com/home/scn5.php

    A 3600rpm/25:1 with 40mm CTC at 144 rpm gives a linear velocity of 0.6031872 m/s with 500 Newtons: http://www.endmemo.com/physics/rpmlinear.php

    A 3600rpm/25:1 with 25mm CTC, which is as small as it is practical to go, at 144 rpm gives a linear velocity of 0.376992 m/s with 800 Newtons.

    A 3600rpm/50:1 with 40mm CTC at 72 rpm gives a linear velocity of 0.3015936 m/s with 1000 Newtons.

    A 3600rpm/60:1 with 40mm CTC at 60 rpm gives a linear velocity of 0.251328 m/s with 1200 Newtons.

    @Avenga76's 75mm CTC at 100 rpm gives a linear velocity of 0.7854 m/s.

    If @SilentChill is running 130mm CTC (not sure if that is the CTC or lever length) at 100 RPM then the linear velocity is 1.36136 m/s.

    Design wise you can then take the known Newton for a given CTC, the distance from the motor to the pivot point and the angle used. Run that through the calculator gives you the magnitude of the torque that is possible per motor. Again the angle affects the outcome.

    If 25 Newtons is applied 600mm from the pivot at a 90 degree angle then the magnitude of the torque is 150

    If 25 Newtons is applied 600mm from the pivot at a 30 degree angle then the magnitude of the torque is 74.99999999999998
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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
  7. Avenga76

    Avenga76 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I am sure mine isn't that fast.

    I double checked my lever arms and they are 80mm CTC which works out to 837mm/s using your calculator.

    Back when I first built my rig I did some speed tests and I could get around 350mm/s with the motors running at about 80% duty cycles. The JRK's couldn't handle that so I turned the duty cycles down to about half so I get around 250mm/s with me in the seat.

    Based on that if I got a controller that would let me run the motors at full speed then I could get around 440mm/s but it seems a long way off the 837mm/s

    Here is a link to my testing and how I measured it http://www.xsimulator.net/community...er-gs-4-simvibe-gauges.5596/page-5#post-68103
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    The calculators are useful for a basic comparative understanding of torque, CTC and linear speed, disregarding design, acceleration and deceleration effects, but there is nothing to say that the rated specs of a motor are.

    For example the levers @SilentChill runs on his rig suggests the stated specs on his motors are far below what they are actually running at.

    If you can't use the full torque and speed of a given motor then results will suffer.

    Design will also be a factor as to how efficiently the speed and torque of a given motor is being used. For example a shoulder mount on a seat shaker takes advantage of the long axis of the seat as a leaver, but loses some efficiency with respect to torque, as that is applied at an angle. But as it has a long lever you can take advantage of the speed and larger CTC lever on cheaper DC worm gear motors. If you place engines in a compact design it takes more torque to drive it because of the shorter lever distance to the pivot, but you can apply the torque it has more efficiently, as it can be at 90 degrees.

    There are many decisions and compromises in any given design.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  9. HoiHman

    HoiHman Active Member

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    @Pit Winches will be too heavy for my build since i have lift the seat up and put it on a cart to move it every time.

    Thanks, any advice on which PM90-180 specific?

    I really want a powerfull solution just to be safe. After the whole thing with the failing SCN6 acculators and not being able to find a clear winner which motor to choose, i'm starting to loose a bit faith in good solution for my case.

    But i'm trowing in the towel just yet, but it's definately much more complicated than i anticipated.:)
  10. brocessor

    brocessor New Member

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    How do you generally chose mechanical parts so that they don't break?
    What diameter do I need for my screws?
    What profiles do I need?
    What joints?