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A sea of doubts

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by carlitos, Jan 28, 2009.

  1. carlitos

    carlitos New Member

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    Hi every x-simers!, this is Carlos from Spain.
    First of all I will appreciate any opinion.
    Once I finished my cockpit I began to think on how to move it.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    After mount all the Hyper (it is completelly done by me, it is not the comercial one) I was a little disappointed because even it´s really nice, very beautiful, When you see all mounted in a closed room it seems toooooo big, so my first idea of mounting a structure (you can see my other post carlito´s project)
    <a class=postlink-local href=http://www.x-simulator.de/forum/carlito-s-project-t1151.html onclick=window.open(this.href);
    return false;>carlito-s-project-t1151.html</a>
    would be too spectacular, I should go out of home. So I began to think on making a simulator like the Txus sim, with a racing seat and pneumatics, small enought to have it in a room and fast and agressive as to need belt to play the sim.
    Then I received a mail from Gilles, a great guy from France who is a monster making models with mechanical desktop. He wanted to do the same like me, and I told him about weight and dimensions of the hyper, and that I was thinking on make other lighter motion simulator. He sent me several models with 2DOF, 3DOF. At the same time Jesus (Txus) sent me too other options to develop his second version of the sim, and I was nearly decided to buy a racing seat (the OMP TRS) and begin with design and drawings, but Gilles sent me a mail asking about a motors he found:
    <a class=postlink href=http://www.cn-dcmotors.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=387 onclick=window.open(this.href);
    return false;>http://www.cn-dcmotors.com/productShows ... icleID=387</a>
    They are from Unite motors, 700W, 48vDC, 2700 rpm (motor speed), 520 rpm (output speed) and 13 Nm torque. So we did some calculations and we thought that making a second reduction with a first sprocket of 15 teeth and a second with 76 teeth we could have 100 rpm output and a torque of 329 Nm with a rod of 20 cm, that is an oscilation of 40 cm and 33Kgm of torque!
    With these motors wich cost is around 130€ each, Gilles wants to make a 6DOF stewart platform. I´m not so ambitious because I could´t spend next to 800€ in motors at this moment, maybe yes if I win loto, so I´m thinkin on mount the hyper in a 2DOF like this: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=JQAZB3EnI_w
    I would mount a support articulation directly to the Hyper under the seat
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    , and the motors would be atached from the base to the hyper directly. My calculations are that If the distance from the COG to the roll and pitch motor is 30 cm, we could have 34º of pitch and roll. It´s not the 40-45 degrees (radical degrees) that I pretended but it is very good for hard sensations. Furtheremore with the speed of 100 rpm we have a speed of 3.3 oscilations per second!! Do you think that it may work?, think that the hyper is supported in the COG and the motors have to rotate it and win the inertia caused by the speed, and think that they have a 33 kgm torque.
    And the other option (I am in love with it) is the 6 DOF stewart like platform. I would put the hyper on the platform like the F1 simulators and I would be the happiest guy in the world XD.
    http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=D93xzPF6des
    Well, the calculations for this options are simple too:
    We could estimate a Hypersim weight of 80-85 Kg (monitors and wheel included) and a pilot weight of 80Kg, so total weight is 160-165 Kg, that is a load of 27,5 kg for each motor. We could reduce a bit the rod lenght or a little more on the second reduction to have same load security. The most important here are not mechanical designs, or motors power, the most important is how John (planmix) is running his software and hardware too. Please John or Thanos, do you think it is not a good idea to make the 6 DOF platform?
    These two options are nice for the hyper because platforms could be under the sim without any other elements standing of the sim. 3 DOF would be other option like
    http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_R50re8i82Y&feature=channel_page
    (Thanks to EvanF)
    And at the end we could keep on working in several designs like this radical sim evolution from Gilles,
    [​IMG]
    or maybe try to get the 45º pitch and roll with pneumatics as a reasonable cost solution to get a good performance.
    As you see we are a sea of doubts, so any contribution and opinion will be wellcome.
    At the end I would like to thanks Thanos, sirnoname, John, Jesus, Victor, Christian, EvanF, Gilles and many other people who share this passion and their knowledge with all us. THANKS from the deep of my heart!
    Oh one more thing: May thano´s h-bridge work with these motors?

    Cheers!
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. tronicgr

    tronicgr

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    Hi Carlitos

    Let me answer some of your questions-thoughts...


    The link you gave doesn't work but from the description you gave, they are really strong motors. You could use them even to make a small 6DOF for sure using the large HP h-bridge R-eng design right now, BUT the is one sigmificant problem. The power source!!!!! Have you ever thought about that? Using car batteries would be nonsense since you have use many many of them and make sure they are fully charged before using the sim. Using wall power supply strong enough, is not an option too, since each may cost even higher than the motor.


    John has finished his work on the 6DOF some months ago, and now he stuck on the greatest problem. Money. After a lot of research, we found that the only solution for a decent 6DOF, is to use AC servo motors, that is more power source friendly and more compact than making a DIY actuator balancing tricks (in fact the cost between a strong DIY actuator and a AC motor drive is almost the same). So he is halted at the moment waiting for a chance of funding somehow, or winning the Lotto... In between he is interfacing his 6DOF algorithms to some games just for fun since he cannot try them (FSX, rollercoaster, LFS)


    I think I answered above about that. The new HP h-bridge could, but the small one I have (DSMhb) cannot.

    Regards, Thanos
  4. carlitos

    carlitos New Member

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    Thanks a lot Thanos, I´m waiting for price of this power supply
    <a class=postlink href=http://www.olfer.com/fuentes/pdf-meanwell/new2006/PSP-1500-spec.pdf onclick=window.open(this.href);
    return false;>http://www.olfer.com/fuentes/pdf-meanwe ... 0-spec.pdf</a>
    It´s 230vAC/48vDC 1500Watt, but still I don´t know about it´s price.
    The web with the motors specifications is
    <a class=postlink href=http://www.cn-dcmotors.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=387 onclick=window.open(this.href);
    return false;>http://www.cn-dcmotors.com/productShows ... icleID=387</a>
    I hope you may see right now.
    As soon as I receive the price I will tell you because maybe this is a good solution for John, maybe cheaper and easier than AC motors with frequency varier.
    Thanks a lot.
  5. carlitos

    carlitos New Member

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    Hi again everyone.
    Still I´m waiting for the power supply price but I have no hope to be cheap :no:
    I have the price for a 800W one and it would be 400€!!! :thbd:
    What you think of this: I could use 12 pc power supplies of 600W each. I have a price of 28€ for each one, so it would be 336€. I could mount in serial and paralel to have 48v DC and 1800W. With this could I move 2 motors with no problem?
    Please Thanos tell me if you Know any other and cheaper way to feed these 48vDC. Oh my god give me a lotto too!
    Thanks!
    Kind regards,
    Carlos.
  6. Mambo

    Mambo New Member

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    Why you dont build own power supply ? You need transformator, capacitator and rectification bridge.
    200811191533_zdroj_cnc_small.jpg
    You need transformator which gave you around 36 V and have around 1800 VA
    Used you will find around 100€
    Capacitator you need 4.000uF for each amper. So if you need 40 A you need 160 000 uF.
    and you have powerfull power supply.
  7. erichans

    erichans New Member

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    Hi Mambo,
    Thanks for that! I have exactly the same thing, 12-20VDC @ 15A for a smaller wattage for WW Motors.

    Hi Thanos,
    I've been sitting on the above mains power supply for months. I somehow got the impression it could not be used for the DSMbhb----something to do with regeneration and where would the generated power be 'sunk'! This means I can go ahead?

    Regards, Erich.
  8. carlitos

    carlitos New Member

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    Hi everyone. Thanks so much mambo for youe reply. I´ve been asking in some electronics forums about making a power supply, and furtheremore of your proposal, some people told me to use a welding machine. I we can´t find a transformer such like this, the welding machine welds at 48v AC, that after the rectifier would be about 60v DC, but as you may vary the movable core it will be about 36v AC output, that after rectify will be 48v DC!!!
    And the better is the price, here in Spain I can buy at 40€, and only should need the integrated diodes bridge of 50A or kpbc5010, and the capacitors, that they told me that for use with motors only I wouldn´t need so much uf, so with 10000 uf in parallel, would be 20000uf, and that would be enought.
    What you think? I´m not very good in electronics, so Mambo, Thanos, and all you masters, Do you think this may be the option to have a cheap and good performance servos?
    Maybe this is a good option for John too (I hope).
    Thanks all you guys!
    Kind regards from Spain,
    Carlos.
  9. nordisch

    nordisch Member

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    Normaly 1-2 mF*/A might be enough :yes: >>> 40 mF - 80 mF

    *1mF = 1000uF
  10. Mambo

    Mambo New Member

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    Well biger capacitator beter capacitator :D but you can add more later.
    For example i now get one Philips 33G/100V for 13€ :highfive:
  11. erichans

    erichans New Member

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    Hi,
    For my flightsim, I use the DSMhb 1.2. So far, I have been using a 12V car battery with WW motors. Before going onto a plan to double the motors to two per axis, I thought I would try out a variable voltage mains power supply I have capable of delivering 15A. Has anyone used a mains unit at higher voltages---say upto 18V with WW motors, and were there any issues?

    Thanks and Regards, Erich.