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2dof+X

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by kurgine, Mar 9, 2014.

  1. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    Hello,

    Want to start new thread about my build.
    Will use JRK 12v12, dont know much about electronics and programing so choose simplest way (hope so).
    Bosch CEP wiper motors to begin with later will upgrade to something stronger.
    DPS600PB as power suply, couldnot resist how cheap 43A can be bought, so took 2 of them :) Another nice touch that it is able to pump ~13.5V (13.8 actualy but i saw many reports that it restarts on high loads on full).

    For the beggining will do just moving platform as still not sure how all rig gona look.
    So for the beggining welded moving parts together, gave JRK's to profesional who welded all conectors to them. Using Deriy pics made plywood seat. Now working on motor placement on base and top platform conections.

    1.jpg
    2.jpg
    3.jpg
    4.jpg
    5.jpg
    6.jpg

    I am very greatefull to this community for all information i found here, all these ideas i found here and all courage to start this project. So i will edit/update this post with all works i do, as i want to keep all this work documented as much as i can. It really helped me to see other works so i hope that this thread will help to someone else to start his own rig.
    • Like Like x 4
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  2. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    Very good decision.
    That is just as my way, I was looking around what is lying around at my workshop, after gathering all the available material I began to build. Why not.
    I can confirm that the guys here will help you (and me) out of any issues. Welcome.
  3. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    nice pictures! Thanks for sharing this :)

    It's a good beginning and your skills in steel work look good!
  4. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    Made some progres this evening, have whole frame assembled, it is just measurement, later when will be sure all is working will disassemble everything to cut angles, lower bolts, paint everything, maybe powder coat metal parts, but that i guess when will find stronger motors. For now it looks like this:
    DSC_0220.jpg

    Using same hand that was originally on the motor it has 43 writen on it i guess it is for the lenght between axes, had to grind other side of it so could easily hammer out the pin:
    DSC_0211.jpg

    Also welded both axis frames to the joint, using whole part from the steering rack to win some height:
    DSC_0210.jpg

    I guess i did mistake with this one, dont really like movement angles it feels like would be better if i turn it 45 degrees, pity i find this out only after assembled everything, so already have mistakes to fix :
    DSC_0209.jpg

    For the rod using Audi A3 stabilizer link it has place for the key from the other side to tighten, also it is exact measurement i needed so could not resist to try it. Pity i could not find used ones, its Sunday and all scrapyards are closed, so got to buy new ones. Dont really like new ones as they are so tight in the beginning so extra tension, but after some work they will go smooth. Also had to cut/shorten one side bolt to have clearance on the motor frame. Had to drill bigger hole on hand for M10 bolt to fit, looks tight(hope so):
    DSC_0215.jpg

    Also had to bend hand a bit to have more room for rod bolt:
    DSC_0217.jpg

    This is how looks my base, using Dariy and ua6aak layout, actualy it is equilateral triangle with 350mm sides and axis points on the angles 3x60 degrees. My hands will have angle to the center axis, see more sense to do like this then parallel layout with 90 degrees angles, as motors will have movement to change center axis i think it will give less stress to motor holders and will be easier for motors:
    DSC_0218.jpg

    Top plate this is where i made mistake when was welding, axis should be turn 45 degrees to any side, now like this i feel resistance when try lowest point on one motor and highest on another, anyway will try like this and later when will disassemble everything for finishing and painting will turn frame, of course if it will not work like this:
    DSC_0219.jpg

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  5. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    One more thing, i burnt one motor when was trying how fast they are. Just connected it to the battery it start to turn after 10-15 turns to one side it shoot inside with some smoke and start to spin soooo sloooow. It still works but turns very slow, heats very fast and wires get hot in 10-15 seconds. Disassembled it and found one part exploded i guess it is condenser didnt make picture of it, but it is square 1cmx1cm grey color ceramic part, actualy there is two of them, exploded only one.
    Can it be because i had bad contact to battery, was holding wire in hands and it was sparking from time to time? Have to find out reason of this as i dont like when motors explodes before they even start to work in the frame :) I know i did something wrong but still not sure what :(
    I believe these mototrs can turn freely for long time there is no way it explode because it turn freely for 20-30 seconds...
    Does anyone have idea what could went wrong to explode condenser in the motor, and what exactly does condenser in DC motor, i guess it is there to reduce sparks from the contacts inside of motor which would make sense why they explode when i was sparking on the battery...
  6. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    That's not normal, indeed! Can you send a picture of the burnt part?
  7. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    This is picture of the internals:
    DSC_0227.jpg
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  8. bsft

    bsft

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    wipers are earth isolated and more than likely the capacitor is in there to stop radio noise interference , you need to earth isolate properly and that means remove any capacitors or otherwise.
    testing motor.jpg
    thanks @eaorobbie for the pic
  9. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    Thanks @bsft, motors will be on the wooden base, do i still need to isolate ground for them?
  10. bsft

    bsft

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    best to do so yes, to be safe, earth isolate each motor.
  11. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    Got 3 more motors so now have 4 + 1 damaged.
    Also i came up to another idea, maybe someone has done it already?
    Thinking to use 4 motors one on each corner but will run the in two groups just like with one motor with changed polaritys:

    4xMotor.jpg

    It makes sense when on paper, logically:
    1 controller same like regular system takes feedback from one pot but runs two motors with opposite polarities, so when motor pools down another push up. I know motors have different speed so slower side will go down and faster push up. Of course it can be complicated to align everything and there is a chance that motors will fight with each other. But like this could have twice stronger system which i am pretty sure could easily move whole rig if everything is perfectly align.
    Maybe i am missing something as it looks too easy to be true. Any thoughts are very welcome.
  12. bsft

    bsft

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    logically yes, practically no, you will have 2 different sources of feedback going through one controller for 2 motors, and confusing the controller. And also you are trying to push double power through one board.
    Simtools is 6DOF, so if you set up 4 motors with individual controllers, you will get awesome motion.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    You mean that motors act like feedback too for JRK's not only pots?

    for this need center axis to be able to go up a down and strong motors :) There is someones build i saw here.
    I guess 2 more controllers would be more effective to use for drift and yaw, or to make joyrider with seatmover inside, need exactly 4 controlers to do that :)

    Anyway thanks for answer @bsft , i knew it is too easy to be true :(

    As per my update, finally find out why i could not connect to the game thanks to @value1 , i just need to run Engine together with the Manager... So now i know and it works perfectly. Connected JRK's to PC setup configurations for JRK's from @Erwan960 build with @bsft fixes and advises. Changed damaged motor. Tomorrow i hope to see first movements on my frame.
  14. bsft

    bsft

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    one jrk will not run even 2 wipers anyway. And yes a pot is needed for feedback for one motor.
    I suppose you could potentially run 2 motors with feedback off one motor and the power just running the other, but it may not work.
  15. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    Have some updates with project which moves already, still not sure how to setup all software right, but i made it move and seriously happy about it :)

    Made connections for pots, cut bolts, grinded pot ends, using cooking aluminium folly to tight fit it, hole for pot in holder was made a bit lower so i can align it with washers. Photos explains how it is made:
    DSC_0231.jpg
    DSC_0233.jpg
    DSC_0237.jpg

    Cut some old AMD processor heat sink in to the peaces and got nice tall heat sinks for JRK's, also have fan from same processor for my electro box.
    DSC_0244.jpg

    At the beginning i gave 5A for motors in jrk setup and that not even move them only make click sound, then 10A, 15A, 20A, after i raise max too 25A one of the motors slowly start to move. JRK's was hot like hell, motors too start to warm up, but it does not move, so i helped by hand and after 1 min they motors were able to move platform by it self. My problem is in new car parts(stabilizors) as they are so strong and tight. Would be much better to use used parts. After few hours of movement when i was trying to understand how stuff works it was much easer/faster to move. It is still tight but i hope it will be better and better with every hour of work.
    Also find out that did misstake when was planing motor placement as one motor turns clockwise to go up and another turns against clock. Thses motors turns much faster when against clock, and movement was not equal, corners was moving at separate speed, so had to change place of wrong standing motor. Didnt try it yet as dissembled JRK's setup, making box for them with fan on top to blow air from the top and it will look much tidier.
    How much Ampers wiper motors can held? Was pushing 25A they were working but i was afraid as they became really hot(that could be cause of tight parts), later lowered to 20A and it is fine. If 20A is fine for wiper then 2xWiper is 40A which is almost max but possible for JRK's. Still thinking about this double motor system :)

    I wish i had more time to spend on this project, i did it faster then i thought but still so many things to do, and worst thing are mistakes which you find out after jobs are done, so have to dissemble reassemble and that eats time :).

    Attached Files:

  16. bsft

    bsft

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    when you disassembled the wipers, you may have disturbed the brush mounting , causing it to move slowly. I found this out several times when I used wipers. Earth isolating them can be simple, I was lucky in the fact I just had to cut some wires off the outside of the casing.
    Wipers are designed to move in one direction, not change direction, so usually they can be slower going the other way.
    With draw in current, simulator use draws stall current which can be 2.5 - 4 times higher than rated current because of the quick movements.
    The casing of the wiper will get hot, so put a fan on it. Make sure you have a fan cooling the jrks as well.
    Most of use whom used wipers in the past on jrks ran them at over 25 amps each. Thats to get them to perform properly
    Again, the jrk will handle 49 amps for 6 seconds and then shut down, so forget the 2 motor idea on one jrk.
    With your frame design, the motors look closer to the pivot than what DERIY had them in his design. He had them further out to help leverage.
    So if you plan to go this way, make sure everything is well balanced or the wipers will struggle if not break.
    Cheers, David
  17. prodigy

    prodigy Burning revs

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, SCN5
    Nice idea with cutting bolt and placing pots like that.

    As for two motors on 1 Jrk, like Dave said, not a good idea. But also running two motors with same feedback doesn't seems like good idea, which two motors would you like to act as one, the two side motors? two fronts?
  18. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    They has to be run one across other as one group, so they will help each other, if JRK can hold ~45A i think it is doable, see nothing wrong with runing two motors on one pot. JRK have no idea how many motors on the output, its just output on controller. One pot for feedback, one controller to calculate and send curent to the output, one output, just there is two motors helping each other on the output with 45A for both of them. CEP motors have 25A as max in the documentation, so they will run almost on max. All that just theoretacaly. Maybe after finish with my first build i will understand why you guys say that it not gona work, but for now i still think it is cheap and simple way to double power with wiper motors, maxing JRK and using all what it can give. And if i still will believe in it, i definitely gona try to do it. :)
  19. bsft

    bsft

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    go ahead, try it then, from experience, you may have problems.
    Max amps and stall amps are two different things.
    The motors I use are rated 16 amps, max 32 amps and stall 44 amps or more.
    The jrks will just shut down from overload anyway. Just dont ask Pololu for warranty, they know what we do with them.
    Good luck.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. kurgine

    kurgine Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK, 4DOF
    Thanks for your answers David. I want to try and see how good one motor work with ~23A limitation from the JRK. So i will aprox know how strong it will be when doubled on 46A. My PSU can push only ~47A(50A max on pikes) so i hope there is no way that something will go wrong with JRK, as you said JRK have protection for 49A.

    Maybe someone who using wipers with JRK's can inform how much Amps they send to their motors? Any feedback would be much appreciated.