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2dof to 3dof DIY Seat mover

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by Nick Moxley, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. bruce stephen

    bruce stephen Hammer doesnt fix it, must be electrical

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    @Nick Moxley i believe he is referring to the change in distance from the steering and pedals as you drive.
  2. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    As Any seat mover owner will tell you, Its not about the Big Movements, but rather the small fine Very Precise movements that really trick the Inner ear, There's Tonnes of documentation out there from real race driver's who have had the pleasure of trying All sorts of Fancy 100K+ commercial Rigs and still feel the Seat mover is the best representation of what an actual race driver is feeling.


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  3. bruce stephen

    bruce stephen Hammer doesnt fix it, must be electrical

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    i do think nick's rig is bad ass. And I agree totaly the big movements are not as good as short snappy "precise" ones.
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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  4. rattler

    rattler

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    Ive played in that complete car sim that was at the Easter Show last year. Big sloppy movements. Although I thought it was great........until I tried a Seat mover.
    And granted I dont have a great deal of experience but to be told this car sim is "accurate and true" , $20 I paid several times over. And then to sit in a seat mover for an hour on several games to play for free.....
    Well , now Im building a sim. Seat mover.
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Overclockersmania.it

    Overclockersmania.it Member

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    my doubt is about a fixt steering, there's a particular motivation about this tecnical solution? sorry perhaps is not rigth chat for my doubt :)
  6. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    It all boils down to personal preference, Build and run what you want to, Just FYI there are a number of user's on this forum that build a full frame's First only to rebuild it as a seat mover and Very much prefer the motion over their previous full frame setup.
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  7. Overclockersmania.it

    Overclockersmania.it Member

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    I understand! thanks
  8. rattler

    rattler

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    @Overclockersmania.it
    Heres something @bsft did a while back in regards to comparisons

    Heres what I came up with, didnt record lap times. No frame made made me faster or slower, so times were about the same.


    Comparisons between simulators. Other people will of course differ with this comparison, so please add your thoughts.


    First things to consider, angle of actual swing of the frames and the profile written. Also, its a brain trick.

    If you want a big swinging frame, go hard, the biggest swing I have had is 14 deg total, but others have frames up to 25 deg. And thats for race, not just flight.

    Both frames use same motors and JRK control boards


    Seat mover with shoulder mounted motors.

    Generally ,a seat mover can give more precise motion detail as it has less over all weight to move than a full frame. However, too much movement can make it hard to hang onto the wheel or mash the juice pedal. And yes, the wheel and pedals are stationary, so proper placement to allow you being pulled away and pushed around has to be taken into consideration. But as said, it does give you the feeling of being moved around in a seat in a vehicle, even with a race seat to hold you in more. You tend to shift your body around to compensate for movement and also what your brain thinks you are moving like. You can still feel pitch and roll of track, but maybe a bit less as legs are still.

    Some SCN seat movers on videos have HEAPS of throw. It might look like fun, but can be too much and eventually make it tiring to drive the game.

    As mine is DIY and has 70mm travel of motor lever and at 600mm from the pivot , total angle is 6.5 degrees. Not much, but then again, too much may make it too hard. Other people will of course differ with this comparison.

    I had a seat mover of 12.5 degrees at one stage, so with a good profile, it was nice, but a harsh profile and WHOA! Fun but hard to hang on.


    Full frame with motors mounted near feet

    Full frames allow you , wheel and pedals to move with you. You dont really get sensation of being pulled, pushed around from pedals and wheels. Obviously not as much as a seat mover, but still there. You tend to feel a bit more of the motion of roll and pitch , when your whole body is getting moved around, I find.

    Seat mover can lose this a bit, but not really much.

    Motors mounted at feet on the frame in question, may take away some of the finer vibration and motion that shoulder mount gives, but then again, shoulder mounting motors would return that finer detail due to higher leveage point. It may lessen a bit due to the fact that a full frame requires a bit more power to move. But hey, just change the profile and increase the motor power a bit more.

    Although, I must say, once again, a good profile can give the same sensation in motion, be it from a different spot. Feet or knees instead of shoulders.

    Full frame is about 8 deg total swing. May not sound like much considering 4 deg from centre, but again, throw a decent profile in it and you feel like you are moving a lot more.


    Summary

    After a while I get the same sort of feeling from both my frames, even though they are different in design.

    In your choice of motion sim build, It will come down to watching videos of other frames, opportunity to play on sims when they are around to do so. Taking a look at pics, seeing what takes your fancy. Heck, even a seat mover can be converted to full frame later, add the extra bit, move pivot, and off you go. 2 seat movers I have sold, the owners have since converted them to full frames, their choice of course. They enjoy both frames they tell me.

    I have only played on a $40,000 VRX dbox with 3 screens, impressive rig, but motion was lousy I though. Although others whom have such rigs wind it up and get great results. Mind you, I dont have that sort of money to get one.

    I have been through 10 different 2DOF designs, starting with joyrider design with about 9-10 deg total swing with screen on it. Good fun, but I found it a bit difficult to focus on a screen moving with you. But thats just me.

    Then I moved onto development of more compact designs, with motors under rear, at knees, out the side, shoulder mount, at feet. Still 2DOF. Screen static.

    Ive had 2 hire sim seat movers for a while , arcade games mostly, and basic “sim” games, and over 100 people and 10 professional drivers. The drivers and players said words to the effect of, “its not the real thing, but the immersion is there.”

    So thats how I go here. Each frame design is a new learn to drive experience I find. Nothing makes me go faster I think. I am slow regardless.

    I may have missed something and please add your thoughts as well. Its always good to compare notes.
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  9. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  10. Overclockersmania.it

    Overclockersmania.it Member

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    thank you for patience!! I start reding more topics
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  11. rattler

    rattler

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    Apologies @noorbeast , I didnt have an FAQ link handy. Just a hands on experience document from a trusted member.
    @Nick Moxley had answered very well and Ive been watching this thread and you had yet to answer , so I thought Id add sonething. If this offends you , feel free to report me or alternatively if @Overclockersmania.it prefers it , I can delete that part of the thread.
    Again , apologies.
  12. Historiker

    Historiker Dramamine Adict Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

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    Dave......:rolleyes:
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  13. bruce stephen

    bruce stephen Hammer doesnt fix it, must be electrical

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    [​IMG]
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  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    All I was pointing out is the shortcut where the info already exists, no offence intended or taken.
  15. rattler

    rattler

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    Dave? Daves not here man.....
  16. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    So i happen to open up my Right hand side gear box/motor a couple week's/month or so ago and what was found wasn't exactly pleasant.

    Couple weeks before that i had a funny scratching sound coming from my Right seat motor, Upon closer inspection i found the Worm gear shaft bearing seal had popped out and got chewed up pretty good by the Main worm gear shaft.(not much left of the seal but a tiny little folded piece of steel about 2-3mm wide by 6-7mm long that you could tell was all chewed up) I couldn't Notice any real damage to the delrin gear, So I went about re greasing and finishing up.


    Well then came the next problem. the Couplers between the motor D shaft and the Worm gear D shaft were Severely worn when i first found the Bearing seal issue. So in the meantime while i wait for some Fancy Steel couplers from Aussie land (Motion Dynamics) I went about folding tiny little pieces of Tin foil to fill the Gap as seen in the pic and the red line. *** These pics are after the Tin Foil Fiasco, lol They worked for the time being but obviously you can see the slop in them.

    [​IMG]





    So while the couplers showed up the other week i wasn't exactly in a rush to install them due to a bit of a size/fitment issue that i could see with my eyes. So Last night i said F it, im installing them. So popped the Right motor/gearbox off the frame and what i found was a Pile of Pulverized near powder residue of what was the Tin foil inserts i used in the couplers to take up the slop. Also upon inspection the " Lateral slop " i found in my Right hand gear box WAY back when in my thread is Also now present in this Right hand gear box. So paper shim was cut in prep for that and the gear box was opened. Didn't find much extra wear on the Mail delrin gear, But after near 2 years of service i thought it was time to "Flip the Gear 180" to access Brand new Threads in the gear. Regreased and shes feeling like she did when brand new, No more lateral slop and the Cast Steel inserts while a Bitch to get on, Eventually did get installed.


    Press the insert onto the Worm gear shaft in a Vice, It will show what material needs to be shaved off. I used a Small micro Diamond file and went to work. After a few more presses to show what material to remove a finished with a Tight Fit and Went an extra step further and used some Green Retaining loctite to ensure those suckers never come loose.

    I talked to MotionDynamics and they confirmed these cast coupler's need to be Pressed on. Im hoping Shane from MD does the right thing and fixes me up for the 2nd pic. Its OVERLY sloppy and loose on Both the Motor shaft D and the Worm gear D.

    [​IMG]

    You can also see its a bad casting job right from the factory,

    [​IMG]
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  17. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Here's what the Left motor looked like when i pulled it....Tin Foil everywhere lol

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]




    Next Project, well part of the next project. 12 Axis = Lots of extra goodies to add in the future.

    Piece of pipe, couple 8x14x4 bearing's and a piece of flat bar bent up.

    [​IMG]
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  18. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    "Hey Nick, care to test out some pedals for me(local buddy)" "Suuuure buddy bring them on by (Me)"


    Shows up at door with these.

    PS These are Ultimate's, NOT the Pro's.....:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


    [​IMG]


    And why not a set of Ricmotech's while were at it.

    [​IMG]
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  19. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Nice friends you got there @Nick Moxley!!

    So when can we expect the hardware reviews?
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  20. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Im going to upset a Lot of people who spend A LOT of money on some fancy a** hardware if i open my big mouth. But here it goes.... :think


    As in our DIY hardware, Just because you spend a Wad full, Does not mean its the best shi* since sliced bread......Pedals included. My eyes have been opened per say. So likelihood of sending off 1000-2000+ of my Canadian little buddies to some foreign country for something i can build myself is slim to nil.

    Was rather excited to try a Hydraulic break, I had always been curious what they would feel like....so, Ricmo's are a Custom set of GTpro1's with Dual 150lb master cylinder's which has a some what goofy attachment point where it mates with the pedal arm, Essentially giving a mechanical Click as you get on the brakes and the brake had very little "squish" and was overly light pressured for having 300lbs worth of Hydraulic pressure on tap. This is where it gets sticky. Buddy wouldn't let me tweek his "profile" for his pedals which resulted in me wanting to do thing's i couldn't do further skewing the results. **After more testing too it appears the mechanical attachment points for the brake/clutch pedal arms have Lots and LOTS of slop in them, Something that would Drive me BONKERS!!!! Clutch pedal pivot point started to Squeal like a little piglet after a bit of use too (couple drops of oil fixed that) I also Turned the Adjustment knob on the Brake pedal as much as i felt safe to in trying to get MORE overall brake pressure required to get to Max, But in the end that was part of the "profile" setting's...so was rather confused when my CSP v2's had more brake pressure required to get to 100% than the 300LBs of hydro power buddy had custom made for him.o_O

    The Grip tape on the brake/clutch was also a little lack luster, even with my Slicked soft racing shoes they offered very little grip, resulting in some slippage of the feet when heel/toe shifting, I would like to see a more Skateboard style grip tape to ensure it sticks to rubber racing shoes.

    Clutch on the Ricmo's was a rather pleasurable experience, the Big Soft Squishy feeling with almost no real End to the travel (pedal position would change that) but overall the Clutch was my Favorite pedal feel out of all 6. Unfortunately it still felt very alien to my CSP setup with the cam which after getting my CSP's back on my rig, i will most likely be staying with a Cam clutch. Its just what i like and can 100% nail my clutch in and out points. FYI this is NOT a Hydro clutch setup. Read up on Ricmotech's product page for the GTpro1's Its all explained rather well.

    Throttle on the Ricmo's was also rather nice, Id venture to say 2X as stiff as the Fanatec on Default "Soft" setting. You could somewhat feel the extra resolution compared to the Fana's, but overall the Throttle pedal was my 2nd favorite pedal of the test. I kinda liked the little foot blocker on the right, to keep your foot from going over too far. I might build on for my Fana throttle pedal.

    The mounting plate for the ricmo's is Long, So long i had to dismount some of my Fan tubes on the back of my pedal deck to allow the hydro cylinder's to stick off the back......2 carriage bolt holes are included to mount with, Screw's worked just fine for the temp testing. The Dual Master cylinder's made it difficult to access the Nuts to move the Brake and Clutch, Also the little Pads on the plate had long since peeled up off the plate making any Sliding adjustment a Nightmare. Also add in there was a Very small amount of Hydro fluid that you can see had VERY slowly built up over time and you could see some moisture on the plate from the Fluid. Something I Dont think many Wives would forgive if the carpet got a soaking in Hydro fluid if a hose were to pop or a major leak happen, lol.

    Wiring on Both sets of pedals were somewhat cumbersome and clumsy, I can somewhat understand them having longer leads, but just came off as somewhat unprofessional in comparison to what else is out there, I fully understand the Ultimate's are meant to also be independently mounted on a plate, so having the extra length is somewhat nice, but the cable are darn near 3' long each and leave you looking for a place to mount the control box with some of the wire coiled up due to being so long.


    Heusinkvelds next,

    The mounting plate Neil sells is IMO Very narrow and resulted in not being able to really get a great feel for heel/toe shifting or general pedal placement for my liking, Essentially they needed to be individually placed on my pedal deck to get the feeling I was after for placement, but at that point i also felt the need for a Heel rest of sorts, these pedals are Very Tall imo and would feel much better with a proper build heel rest. The mounting plate also just overall didn't offer the adjust ability i would have hoped for.

    Pedal face's felt slippery even with my race shoes, Would have liked some Grip tape, but Im pretty sure buddy races in Socks.....

    Buddy brought them over with His setting's on them and with the Cam clutch nullified with a particular angle setup to eliminate the "cam like feeling". The Stiffness of the clutch was Sooo over the top heavy it actually made my seat motor's "tense up" when trying to apply full clutch. This wasn't a pleasurable feel and having to press sooo hard on the clutch felt very Very strange.

    Throttle pedal was next and unfortunately was also Far FAR too stiff even on the softest setting on the spring. I would venture to say in the range of 4-5X stiffer than the Fanatec's which also lead to my seat motor's Tensing up again (slightly less than clutch) and i Could care less to have to press THAT hard to hold full throttle. I also want to say the Small hydraulic shocks on the Throttle and clutch were aiding in that Overly stiff feeling, also they gave the throttle a somewhat "gritty feeling" which was very strange to feel under my foot. It almost felt like there was A lot of Air/Oil build up in the Shocks as soon as you pump them a few times. (To R/C enthusiast when you shocks are a Hair down on oil and you can feel it at top dead, Squish Squish as you push it up to the bladder and pull it back down)

    And last but not least (well least impressive for me**) the Brake, Again buddy had His setting's on them which had the initial Touch of the brake pedal to be Very soft and Only rely on a spring. I would gues to say when i measured them side by side with my Fana's The Ultimate's had 3-4x the amount of squish before the pedal loaded up on the bushing. This spring was Not stiff enough to remotely build any pressure on the bushing then load cell which made it Very difficult to actually find the Initial break bite point. Buddy kept telling me this is how a real brake should feel ect ect, but in the end i Very much disliked the feeling of this pre pressure build up spring feeling he had it set up to. **Buddy then goes on to tell me he forgot the extra bushings to help deal with this issue.

    So unfortunately im still waiting on those bushing's to test a little further. Load cell pressure on the Ultimate's is also capable of 300lbs, but with my seat mover, there was only an allowable amount of pressure i could set at Full Lock before i would be Overly stressing my motor's. So in DXview (Super cool little app to check out/set up peripherals) I set the brake to be as heavy as i have my Fanatec setup. Unfortunately tho with the initial spring feel to bushing feel, it resulted in very sketchy linearity in the brake pedal when trying to apply a nice smooth amount of brakes. (Running an bit exaggerated brake Surge effect helps show off the brake pedal linearity)

    So i guess in the end I wasn't really all that impressed with these "have to have" pedals as some put it. I would much rather see someone invest 1000-1200$ into a basic 2 or 3dof motion setup rather than spend it on a set of pedals that Sure they look cool and all, Might have the adjust ability to do what ever you want with them, but in the end I personally do Not see the value here AT all. DIY hydro can be done for a Fraction of the cost and you all know me, if i can build it, I sure as heck aint gonna buy it.

    Moxley out.
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