1. Do not share user accounts! Any account that is shared by another person will be blocked and closed. This means: we will close not only the account that is shared, but also the main account of the user who uses another person's account. We have the ability to detect account sharing, so please do not try to cheat the system. This action will take place on 04/18/2023. Read all forum rules.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. For downloading SimTools plugins you need a Download Package. Get it with virtual coins that you receive for forum activity or Buy Download Package - We have a zero Spam tolerance so read our forum rules first.

    Buy Now a Download Plan!
  3. Do not try to cheat our system and do not post an unnecessary amount of useless posts only to earn credits here. We have a zero spam tolerance policy and this will cause a ban of your user account. Otherwise we wish you a pleasant stay here! Read the forum rules
  4. We have a few rules which you need to read and accept before posting anything here! Following these rules will keep the forum clean and your stay pleasant. Do not follow these rules can lead to permanent exclusion from this website: Read the forum rules.
    Are you a company? Read our company rules

Why not to use a Stepper motor in DOF [ seen 8Nm - 15nM around 60$ ] ?

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by Andrew M, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Andrew M

    Andrew M P_H_O_3_N_I_X

    Joined:
    May 11, 2017
    Messages:
    105
    Occupation:
    IT Chief Programmer / CTO
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    Balance:
    585Coins
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    Hi,
    Have anyone consider using a stepper motor instead of DC 12V motors with potenetiometers [ or whatever other windshield variant ] ?
    In 3D printing this is the best possible solution [ good precission ] but disadventage they haven`t got enough torque [ around 1Nm ]. Lately have found something like this, a 8.4Nm, 6A - so could it be some pretendent to some ultimate solution [ 60$ ] ?
    http://allegro.pl/silnik-krokowy-8-4nm-6a-86hs118-6004a14-cnc-i6714208577.html 0909873646e6a08bf458d6b28f57.jpg
    Will probably need a controller, like this 4 motors 6A Toshiba [ 60$ ] http://allegro.pl/sterownik-silnikow-krokowych-toshiba-4x-tb6560ahq-i6116463308.html d00a6e1a45fe800dce8decbdaadd.jpg
    Have anyone tried ?
  2. matthew loomis

    matthew loomis Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    rochester,ny
    Balance:
    603Coins
    Ratings:
    +82 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    I have some servo motors and a couple stepper, interested to see if you find anything
    [​IMG]
  3. Andrew M

    Andrew M P_H_O_3_N_I_X

    Joined:
    May 11, 2017
    Messages:
    105
    Occupation:
    IT Chief Programmer / CTO
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    Balance:
    585Coins
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    since some step motors has a required "torque" for a DOF and can be found in acceptable prices [ which also cannot be some sort of a disaster of course ] - then maybe could be worth to think about them someday [ still need to find more informations about this in practical usage and read a little more about this - also at the moment still not have enough free resources for a next build - when actually hasn`t closed my first 12V DC construction, yet... but it just crossed my mind that could / may be good solution for some future DOF builds, since theoretically we are building some kind of a step motor from a 12V DC with feedback from potentiometers ;) just wanted to ask more experienced DOF builders, if someone had tried this idea. Maybe with controller on [ serial / usb ] - it could be used as interface in ST just without an arduino stuff...
  4. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,574
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    Balance:
    28,370Coins
    Ratings:
    +2,844 / 38 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    AC motor, Motion platform
    This conversation comes up often - Steppers have their advantages/disadvantages for a sim - use the search - you would want a stepper with an encoder, or a system were it can 'home'. Personally -Steppers can be a bit too noisy for me.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  5. pab61

    pab61 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2017
    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Balance:
    638Coins
    Ratings:
    +40 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    Arduino
    I haven't got any real practical experience on whether they are effective in a motion system yet, but I have done some preliminary tests of driving a stepper with SimTools using an Arduino.



    I plan to use a couple of these for belt tensioning soon, I'll report back with my findings when I do. This is a 3Nm stepper, I've felt a 13Nm model used as a DD wheel, and it is very strong for that purpose, but whether it's strong enough to move a whole rig, I'm not sure. Hopefully we'll get to find out soon :)

    And yes, as SeatTime says, they are noisy!
    • Like Like x 2
  6. auryza

    auryza Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Lithuania
    Balance:
    4,325Coins
    Ratings:
    +76 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, Arduino
    Very nice !!!
    You can use even 22 NM or more (NEMA 42) stepper, they really are powerful. I will follow your project, it's really interesting, and if you will share build information i will try too build this kind of motion. Thumbs up!
  7. Jerry Atrick

    Jerry Atrick this is my sim Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    141
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Balance:
    1,414Coins
    Ratings:
    +44 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    4DOF
  8. Alexey

    Alexey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2014
    Messages:
    452
    Occupation:
    Electronics Technician
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Balance:
    8,060Coins
    Ratings:
    +620 / 2 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    You won't be able to use the shaft as the main drive mechanism for the stepper, you will need to gear it down.
    At this stage there is no way that a stepper motor is going to contend in a dollar for dollar performance contest in terms of driving a motion simulator.
  9. Jerry Atrick

    Jerry Atrick this is my sim Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    141
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Balance:
    1,414Coins
    Ratings:
    +44 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    4DOF
    Thank you Alexey, for clearing that up; so NO geared steppers (like the one mentioned) will perform properly in respect to a motion platform!

    Regards Jerry
  10. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Reverb Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,044
    Location:
    USA
    Balance:
    5,828Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,042 / 4 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Hey Jerry, it's not that they wouldn't perform properly. Any motor with sufficient speed and torque should be fine. @Alexey was saying dollar for dollar on a cost basis.

    The one you linked to lists very low rotation speed as a feature along with high torque. The low rotation speed could be an issue in a sim platform. Also, steppers need special driver electronics since the motor commutation is done electronically and you'd need a controller for each motor. They also generally need to be ramped up and down in speed which also slows overall response.

    There probably are appropriate stepper motors and controllers out there but I bet Alexey is right that ones that are suitable will be very expensive especially compared to regular gearmotors.
  11. Alexey

    Alexey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2014
    Messages:
    452
    Occupation:
    Electronics Technician
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Balance:
    8,060Coins
    Ratings:
    +620 / 2 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    A geared stepper will work, they are just slower.
  12. Jerry Atrick

    Jerry Atrick this is my sim Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    141
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Balance:
    1,414Coins
    Ratings:
    +44 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    4DOF
    Hi Zed, and thanks for making the reasoning on stepper motor usage clearer.

    I appreciate every bit of guidance given.

    Thank you
    Jerry.
  13. Jerry Atrick

    Jerry Atrick this is my sim Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    141
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Balance:
    1,414Coins
    Ratings:
    +44 / 1 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    4DOF
    Hi Alexey, so slower in this case is not an effective pace?

    I guess we are speaking of RPM!
    At what RPM would an acceptable rotation need to be?

    Jerry.
  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    20,461
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    144,596Coins
    Ratings:
    +10,741 / 52 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Zed

    Zed VR Simming w/Reverb Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,044
    Location:
    USA
    Balance:
    5,828Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,042 / 4 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Hey Jerry, I don't have personal experience yet so grain of salt, but what I see mostly recommended are motors with outputs in the 50-60 rpm range. If you only use 90 degrees of travel on your output arms in a typical setup, neglecting acceleration and deceleration, that's 250 ms lock to lock.

    That's not written in stone and I've seen mention of faster and slower motors here, but should be more or less a ballpark to aim for. Obviously the output gearing trades speed for torque. If you are moving lots of mass, you may want more torque which generally trades for less speed or more money.
  16. tassault

    tassault New Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Balance:
    78Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, Arduino
    Hi Pab61,

    Can you share the code please ? Thank you
  17. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,886
    Location:
    London
    Balance:
    11,543Coins
    Ratings:
    +453 / 9 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    i was thinking about using a stepper as a ball screw motor

    the problem i=I can see is the motors work in steps !

    so it has to pulse x number if times to get from a to b

    you can't use PID control to get to where you want to be faster

    if you want speed a stepper motor is not suitable

    they are perfect for CNC machines where speed is less important than precision
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Thanos

    Thanos Building the Future one AC Servo at a time... or 6

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,347
    Occupation:
    Electronics Engineer
    Location:
    United States
    Balance:
    2,692Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,043 / 9 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    AC motor, Motion platform, 4DOF, 6DOF
    Too much vibration, too much noise, losing torque on higher speeds... just to name a few reasons...

    • Useful Useful x 1
  19. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,886
    Location:
    London
    Balance:
    11,543Coins
    Ratings:
    +453 / 9 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF

    That looks like a stepper and gearbox - do you know the gear ratio ?

    It appears to perform pretty well !

    So i could be suitable for a lever arm sim

    Was this demo for a sim ?
  20. Thanos

    Thanos Building the Future one AC Servo at a time... or 6

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,347
    Occupation:
    Electronics Engineer
    Location:
    United States
    Balance:
    2,692Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,043 / 9 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    AC motor, Motion platform, 4DOF, 6DOF
    No, its not suitable at all... I just used it to develop rolling average filter and spike filter for the AASD-15A servos...