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Winches motor discussion

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini

    Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini Member

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    Moved to here as @noorbeast indicated. Please, all that can help, fell free to post. @Pit

    I managed to get some winch motors cheap and i think i will use them, so i did some math...

    http://www.northerntool.com/images/downloads/manuals/999364.pdf
    I found this winch spec...
    Say 153:1 and 23 rpm as pit already related. Also says that has 0.85HP

    Taking count 0.7HP for tolerance.

    Using this site:
    http://ncalculators.com/electrical/horsepower-to-torque-calculator.html

    We can get +/-220nm from 23 rpm and 0.7hp

    If we get 220 newton meter, using a lever of 20cm, we will get 1100 n/20cm....
    100cm - 220nm
    20cm - 1100nm
    (Reverse math cause value goes higher)

    as here we use kg, 1100nm is +/- 100kg

    Lets go to speed.

    if we have 23rpm , so we have 0.4rps.
    0.4 rps is 140°...
    so in 1 sec, 140°....

    Using this:
    http://www.endmemo.com/physics/rpmlinear.php
    200mm r
    140° /sec

    is 481mm/sec...

    So, with a 2000 lbs winch, we can travel +/-40cm with a speed of 481sec, lifting 100kg?

    I think i'm wrong somewhere, but all looks fine....

    Please, let me know if i get some wrong info!
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    Just a couple of things to keep in mind, the more the gear ratio the higher the mechanical loss, up to 50%, and it takes 9.8N per kg to counteract gravity: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/calculating-basic-linear-speed-and-forces.89/

    In other words you may need to allow considerable leeway for mechanical loss and that can significantly affect what N you have per kg. As leeway 0.15 is around 18 percent of 0.85HP and you may want to allow more.
  4. Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini

    Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini Member

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    U are right @noorbeast, let's say that the final efficiency is 60%...

    60% of .85=.5

    Using the torque calculator, gives 154nm...
    Transforming for 20cm arm, gives 770nm.

    If the formula is kg x gravity = nm, let's make reverse, 770/9.8= 78 kg...

    3 motors = 240 kg lift?

    Same Calc taking 40% motor efficiency = 62kg = 186 kg lift?
    1. Are this numbers OK or can't expect that?
  5. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    In many cases the motors don't lift in unison and each one needs to handle the anticipated load.
  6. Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini

    Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini Member

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    sorry I didn't understood, can u explain better? Cause I'm from Brazil :)
  7. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    With 3 motors you could have the simulation of say braking for a right hand corner, which includes a big bump. I will assume a 3dof layout like mine, 2 motors at the front and 1 at the rear.

    The front left motor would be pitch down with a significant extra portion of the user weight on it. The other 2 motors would be pitch up to simulate the corner. The COG of the user weight is forward and to the left. When the simulation hits a bump if it is an even bump across the whole road then all motors will move up and down together in unison but the user COG will remain more toward the left front motor. If the bump was a curb hit with the left front tier then the left front motor, which already carries additional user weight, will have to lift that weight pretty much alone.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  8. Stealthelius

    Stealthelius Member

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    23 RPM is sufficient for speed and reactivity ?
  9. Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini

    Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini Member

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    @noorbeast, now understood, but it can happen with all simulators, right ? I'm thinking about a center spring to balance the weight...

    @Stealthelius What i already learned is: we need linear speed, for big travel we need slow rpm motors, for short travel we need faster rpm...

    For u to understand: if we have a slow rpm, we have more torque, to have linear speed we will need a long arm, if we have a longer arm, we will have more stroke.
    If we have more rpm, we have less torque and need to use a shorter arm, to have strengh and speed, so we will have less stroke.

    Hope u understand :)
  10. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Yes that type of weight transference happens with all sims, but is a bit more significant in an unsupported lift design.

    And yes a center spring is a good way to deal with the weight issue, I use one on my compact 3DOF rig with heave. That significantly reduces the motor requirements as you are effectively lessening the weight involved.
  11. Stealthelius

    Stealthelius Member

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  12. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    btw using winches you can choose between torque and stroke. Even a long lever does not limit the (needed) torque, tough they can stress painfully your ear...
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini

    Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini Member

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    @Stealthelius idk about it, but i think in forum have a lot of info about it, about 45mm i think...

    @Pit, i THINK i wont have problem with the noise, cause i use a very high volume, but as u know more than me, that can be a problem
  14. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini

    Gabriel Vuelma Romanzini Member

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    Yeah @noorbeast , saw that, what a good idea from Pit to make a video like that :)
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. mariano68

    mariano68 Active Member

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    Just to keep winches discussion in one place...
    I'm researching on winches to use just the motor for a linear actuator and discard all the rest, because it is impossible to get motors here (Argentina).
    So, I can get two kind of winches at almost the same price:
    1- Also known as Boat winch. Has a reduction of 400:1 and motor specs: 12V – 0.4 HP (0.29Kw) and around 4000 rpm without reduction.
    2- Typical winch, has a reduction of 153:1 and motor specs: 12V – 1.1 HP (0.8Kw) and also around 4000 rpm without reduction.

    What do you guys think it would be better to make an actuator, taking in consideration what would be needed in both cases to drive and power them, also the electric bill... It would be enough the smaller motor (easier to drive and power) ?
  17. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

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    Interesting thoughts - ntl you still need a gear box or reduction when using an actuator. So how you will combine a gear box with the winch motors?
  18. mariano68

    mariano68 Active Member

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    In an actuator based in a screw ball or lead screw, the screw itself is the reduction.
    So, based in the winch motor speed and torque, and screw pitch, at 0.8Nm for the boat winch and 1.5Nm for the bigger, I got about 800Nm and 2000Nm movement force at the same speed (360mm/s).
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Historiker

    Historiker Dramamine Adict Staff Member Moderator Gold Contributor

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    A couple of comments based on my experiences with both types of winch motors. The boat winch motor you can indeed remove the motor and remount it elsewhere. But the planetary gear type winch motor is integral to it's housing and would be much more difficult to use in a different configuration. Not impossible, I did it myself but your mounting options are very limited.

    As @Pit mentioned; you would need some type of reduction to get torque from the RPM of the motor (converting one to the other) but a ball screw would not give you that torque. This is how I know the difficulty of using the planetary gear motor without the gearing. I have a ball screw on my flight simpit seat (for heave) and without the gearing there is zero movement under load (even a light load) so the ball screw does not give much mechanical advantage.

    The ball screw was never intended to give mechanical advantage really, I just needed a linear device for that DOF.

    I am actually using a boat winch motor to drive the ball screw now. I removed the final gear (430:1 @ 10rpm gear 3 in picture) and am using the next to last gear (100:1 @ 40rpm gear 2b in picture). I am getting around 50mm/s travel which is great for flight but not at all usable for driving sims.

    Here is some information about the typical boat winch created by another member @boosted-lt1 and posted in his build thread here:

    http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/2dof-jrk-winch-build-thread.5369/

    I use this exact winch setup myself.
    Winch Gearing_3-30-14.JPG


    20160605_220015_zpscvfxczm0.jpg
    • Informative Informative x 3
  20. mariano68

    mariano68 Active Member

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    @Historiker , thanks for your reply, I'd read your winches experiences lots of times :)

    Maybe there is something I don't understand correctly, also any conclusion we can get will help. But,
    I based my thoughts in other members experiences:

    Some data about the superwinch kind of winch that @Ben V got, at least the best data I'd read in the forum using tools :
    http://www.xsimulator.net/community...r-using-winch-motors-and-steering-boxes.6937/


    @SeatTime own linear actuator with gearless motor 350watts 4500rpm (at least one of the motors he tested):

    4 actuator bodies.jpg

    @wannabeaflyer2 linear actuator with gearless
    Scooter Motor MY1016 2700Rpm 24Vdc 250 Watt and later with 300watts 4000rpm gearless motor.
    DSCN0433.JPG DSCN0260.JPG


    @douwe http://jippes.home.xs4all.nl/Hi5/index.html Using household vacuum cleaner motor and a m10 threaded rod

    parts MK_III leg.jpg koppeling.jpg

    None of them used gears and all of them worked more than fine, maybe I'm not explaining correctly because English is not my language.

    Btw, I always wanted to ask you why you didn't tried that great trick about taking out the last gear to get 42rpm that you used for your traction lost, in the other winches, as 100:1 reduction would be more than enough for that motors and shoulder mount. Also you told that your winches used 90watts motors and all the boat winches I found use 300watts motors, so maybe the winches manufacturers are giving wrong specs?

    Attached Files:

  21. mariano68

    mariano68 Active Member

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    I saw some winch teardown videos in youtube, not much of a problem to get the planetary gear out, and to do a hole in the housing to adjust a shaft coupler. it also depends on the winch, as there are some with the planetary in one side, and other with the planetary at the other side:
    10814.jpg M32200-C1.jpg desarme malacate.jpg 20150823_163557.jpg