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VFD's and 3phase Induction motors FAQ corner / pls. Read all first

Discussion in 'Motor actuators and drivers' started by speedy, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    Oh OK, I know the servo controllers are a lot cheaper than VFD's, but didn't realise the servo motors were more expensive - I guess then the overall cost is more then? The video of course was not for the servo motor of course - just the controller :)
  2. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Regardless the SW ... can you give us an estimated price for such system including the motor ?
  3. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    Well I think it might be an interesting exercise - but I'm afraid you will have to wait until Monday now :) And again, perhaps I got the wrong idea here - I didn't think cost was the major consideration here as I would imagine that DC motors are far less expensive (as seem to be used by a lot of people on here to build motion sims), I guess to have a full platform such as you have you will need more powerful components to move it. I have worked extensively in Egypt and know the Siemens guys very well, but wouldn't be able to get any discount I'm afraid - I do know from my experience working there that many components are less expensive than Europe, as of course is the labour.

    I do know that (in the UK) the S110 is half the price of the G110 (servo against VFD) normally in my industry we wouldn't consider using a VFD for this application. Of course I'm sure it can be and has been done (I think you're testament to that :) ) I put the video of the servo controller up to give an idea of the functionality with what I thought was a useful video for a bit of info only.

    Actually looking at a quick cost of the servo controller and servo motor the cost would be approx £500 in total - I'm not too sure how that compares yet with your system (I know the Siemens G110 is probably this price on it's own). But this is for 750W motors (the max you can do with the Siemens servo controller on single phase)

    The trouble is that in my industry the VFD's and motors cost many thousands but this is due to the application (and companies that have lots of money unlike you and I!!) so sometimes I can be unrealistic ;)
  4. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    this video is for Siemens S110 servo drive with a servo motor and a special Siemens SW ...
    the above statement is yet undefeated .
  5. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    Actually if you look at the video the SW is free shareware and only to configure the servo controller - yes it could be used to control as well, but I believe this unit is available with a RS485 interface.

    Anyway perhaps if you would like more information you can PM and I will get all the info to you. I do feel this is getting off topic slightly and being considerate of your previous comment regarding confusing people (and bearing in mind the title of this thread) perhaps it's better to leave it here for now. In saying that I'm more than happy to start a private conversation regarding these and supply any information you require. That way you can then post your findings - as I said you are far more skilled than me in using these devices for this application.

    My offer here is to simply help with information where I can :)

    I only put the video up as an interesting piece for people to look at - I'm an engineer for Siemens - not a salesman!!
  6. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    @Bluestoneracing ... Due to the special nature of this Community ... any Motor Controller Solution consideration her must include :
    - full compatibility to SimTools SW with all game plugins provided ...
    - the simplest yet effective solution for DIY'rs members ...
    - cheaper "affordable "and could be found world wide on " ANY " country world wide ...

    can Siemens/US give us a promotion on that ?
  7. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    OK so in answer to your questions :)

    1. Yes - if a VFD is then this will be
    2. Please define this - after all doesn't this depend on the budget of the DIY - surely DIY doesn't always mean low cost or even simple - people here build 2 3 4 DOF, after all your unit which is linked on the bottom of your posts maybe be considered outside of what you say is a simple and cost effective solution to DIY members - looks pretty complex to me - far more complex than simple 2 DOF seat movers.
    3. I do not promote Siemens, I work for Siemens so offered to help with information. Siemens is available in more countries worldwide than any other manufacturer - I know, I've worked all over the world (including Egypt)

    And to take you up on your point of MUST be 'full compatibility to SimTools SW with all game plugins provided ...' really? It would appear that I've seen posts from sellers that may well not meet this requirement - is this your own personal rule? Or really the rule of the forum? Surely you would welcome ideas from other sim builders etc?

    So anyway, thank you for informing me of the rules of your personal forum - now I know - perhaps I should contact you first before making another post so I don't contravene your rules. It's odd as I don't see that your a member of staff - in fact you've only been a member of the forum for a couple of years - far less than others. Sorry I offered my help and if you want to dictate to members you picked on the wrong person.

    As I said before, just let me know if there's any information I can help you with :)
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what you'll get when dealing with Siemens guys .:think
  9. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    Sorry what? Standing up to what is clearly a bully? Offering help? Trying to contribute but constantly being put down? What exactly?

    And for your information I'm a consultant - I do not work directly as Siemens staff, but do work for Siemens as a consultant control systems engineer.

    If you want information, I'll go out of my way to offer it - that's what you get from Siemens guys :)

    Please I'm here to offer help in return for getting help in building my sim rig - not get into a debate such as this - as I said before, if you want to dictate terms and bully someone - you picked on the wrong person.

    I'm not trying to belittle you or put you down in anyway - I value your expertise - so I'm really not too sure what you are trying to achieve in this thread.

    As I said before I really don't feel this sort of behavior is contributing to the general benefit of what it is intended so perhaps we best call it a day. Unless you have a valid question to ask - then I'm more than happy to help :)
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Really ... :grin
  11. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    @Bluestoneracing ... I'm really going easy with you ... this is your first post ...
    very clear and very professional ...

    here you [ support # best to avoid ] the theory of using MODBUS stating that you have 1-3 years update time which is not acceptable in any real application ... confusion started with you .
    and please continue read your own posts and see as a Consultant if they can be clear for average guys ...


    We use PID word as expression for the controller ... like Arduino doing the PID .
    We preserve the PC resources for the game handling .
    So ,we either use the SimAxe or Arduino as PID controllers with USB interface to the PC ... which provides us with 2 direction signals and an error PWM signal to control a motor through a motor controller ... mainly here most guys use JRK's or H-Bridges as typical motor controllers ... No servos , No stepper motors ... only some of us are now going to the VFD's and 3ph motors with its leading performance .
    So using the VFD's internal PID is not applicable here in any way ... as each company uses it's own terms and values controlling there products as considered as close guarded company's secret ...
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  12. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    @Bluestoneracing , I’m currently using larger wattage DC motors (over 1hp each) on my simulators and am having good success with them. Therefore, I don’t have anything to ask you atm about VFD’s and the like. But I do want to say thank you for offering your help and expertise to members on this forum despite your initial “welcome” on this thread.

    May I suggest that you start your own thread @Bluestoneracing with your kind offer of assistance to all that are willing to ask? That shouldn’t bother speedy since you won’t be posting on his thread. Also, since he “knows it all” already, there is no reason he should be asking any questions on your thread! In fact, he can ignore you altogether if he wishes. He probably won’t even see this message because he promised to make me the first on his “Ignorance” list! :grin You may not be as lucky as me though! :sos
  13. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    Thanks @BlazinH for the kind words. Don't worry I'm always happy to help if I can and haven't been put off by this member - lets just hope he adds me to his ignorance list ASAP
    :grin

    Yep I'll think about what to offer and post a new thread as you suggest :)

    I also think I will end up using DC motors as it seems the way most are using and with good success :) I've already got so much information from builders like yourself - it's been pretty cool for me to see just how good all you guys are at building these things :) Not too many questions at the moment from me, but I'm sure they're will be and I know the comunity will have the answers - I'm serisouly impressed with the wealth of ideas and solutions on here :cheers

    Working away from home at the moment but as soon as I return the build will commence:thumbs
    • Like Like x 1
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  14. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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  15. hooshang

    hooshang Active Member

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    @speedy
    hello friend ,thank you for this usefull thread
    I am using the vfd that has sensorless vector mode,do you think it may
    improve the performance of my sim if I enable this mode?
    manufacturer says in their manual that it can improve low speed torqe
    regards
    Hooshang
  16. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    @hooshang ...
    Every thing is related to the final required torque and the motor/gearbox/mechanical s ... and not chasing the ghost by enabling every feature we may have even if not needed ...

    So in general speaking form ...
    In a Scalar drive (V/Hz only), the drive spits out a constant Voltage @ variable Frequency according to the speed you have selected. But the VFD has no idea whether or not that had the desired effect on the motor and Sim load; it does it's thing and hopes for the best.

    If the load turns out to be more than the motor can handle, the motor slows down, the slip increases and the motor pulls more current and creates more torque. This is bad for the small motor and the VFD and there are limits for this before shutdown , and this is a "sloppy" process at best description.
    So basically the VFD provides an output, the over load creates an "error" in Sim performance and maybe in the VFD itself , if the overload is small not to shutdown the VFD, the VFD doesn't really do anything about it because it is in Open Loop mode and what actually covers this error is your motion controller like the Arduino with it's feed back pot.
    So The end result is bad Sim movements and the fault is in the motor capability not the VFD .

    In Vector control, the VFD uses feedback from the motor to see the error " special motors are required ", then to determine the exact vector of voltage AND frequency to produce exactly what is needed to correct the error. It has a high speed processor to crunch the numbers and quickly tweak the output voltage and frequency pattern to maximize the torque and / or tighten the speed regulation. Because of this, you can operate a motor at Breakdown Torque at any speed, even zero if necessary.
    Vector control can be accomplished with external feedback from encoders called Closed Loop Vector or Field oriented Control (FOC). And with what is called "Sensorless Vector Control" (SVC) or "Open Loop Vector Control" both names are technically incorrect;
    because there is always a sensor and it is always a closed loop. But the difference is in that what is called SVC uses very sensitive current sensors inside of the VFD to watch exactly what is going on, and comparing it to a mathematical model it has created of the motor during setup (the "tuning" procedure). Both methods work fine, but the SVC has one limitation; it cannot watch the motor performance if the motor is not moving, i.e. zero speed; as FOC, where you have the encoder feedback, can do that.

    So for your question , Starting Torque will always be super highest and repeatable with Vector control of any type compared to Scalar control. This doesn't mean that Scalar control is weak in motor delta connection type . But, If you want a full torque first at Zero/low Speed before you release a brake due to a heavy slipping load , then you need FOC.
    If not, SVC will probably work fine and you will not need the encoder but you'll need a " VFD ready motor ".

    and finally if you can just provide any normal / big enough 3ph motor plus a good designed platform that can handle the load ... so the cheapest effective easiest way is the simple Scalar drive (V/Hz ) .

    Regards
    • Informative Informative x 2
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  17. hooshang

    hooshang Active Member

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    @speedy
    thank you freind for the comprehensive reply and for now I watched
    your videos and I saw one of your inverter you used is LS ic5 ,
    may I ask your configuration parameter(ACC,DEC,....etc)for this
    inverter?
    thank you
    regards
    Hooshang
  18. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    @hooshang ...
    I also used Delta VFD-EL and I'll use any other brand that serves the purpose ...
    and for the acceleration and deceleration time I [you should too] used the minimum allowed time in VFD as I just need my 1/2HP motor gearbox output shaft to follow up INSTANTLY the angular positions along full 3 turns ONLY ... that gives me about 45cm linear up/down motion range with the sprocket and the chain ...

    For ex. If I used 0.5 second or more and if the full speed of my motor can produce this full range 3 turns in the output shaft in less then one second ... So respectively when moving from point (A) to (A+2cm) or (A+5cm) up/down motion ... that would take half year time delay due to the 0.5sec Acc and Dcc time set for the motor to move and stop at the exact required position ...

    So Acc & Dec time are set to 0.1sec plus a torque boost and a 220V start up voltage .

    edit : I'll update my simulator thread with all of my VFD settings as you opened my eyes on that may be an important leading points .
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  19. speedy

    speedy Well-Known Member

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    Should a 3 phase motor run on star or delta ?

    Best Answer from Google ...
    It does not matter to the motor, just as long as the three phase voltage is what the motor specification requires.

    HOWEVER..... While the motor will run in either star or delta, it will draw 3 times as much current in delta as it does in star, and will develop 3 times more torque (and power) in delta compared to star.

    3 phase motors are often started in star, as it draws less current and is less likely to blow fuses, damage contacts and upset the supply system due to voltage drops. When the motor is near full speed, the motor is switched to delta connection for full power.

    This is called star-delta starting, and is suitable for light, low inertia loads such as fans or pumps. Because of the motor's reduced start up torque, it shouldn't be used for compressors, machines with heavy flywheels, or machines that come onto load before they reach full speed. Motors designed for star-delta starting will have 6 live terminals in their connection box.

    Let's get a little bit technical. In star, each winding has L-N voltage across it (about 58% of the L-L voltage applied when in delta) - in many countries , our voltage from the active (live wire) to the neutral (return wire) is 230 volts, and the voltage from one active to another active is 400 volts. (230 / 400 is about 0.58, or 58%. and 400 / 230 is 1.73 or 173%). Connecting a motor in star puts 230 volts across each winding, and connects ONE winding to each supply phase. when running, it draws (say) 10 amps, and develops about 6 kW / 8HP. In delta, each winding has 400 volts across it, and each supply line powers 2 windings, so the current increases by 1.73 (400 volts compared to 230 volts) and again by 1.73 (2 windings on a 3 phase system draw 1.73 times more current than one winding.) 1.73 squared is 3 - so in delta, the motor draws 3 times more current (30 amps), and delivers 3 times more power (18kW / 24HP).

    Some motors are designed to be operated ONLY in star - they may have a label advising you of this, or they may have only one value of voltage and current on the nameplate. They will also usually have only 3 terminals inside the connection box. If you suspect that the motor is 'star only', but want to make sure, connect the motor in delta, and check the running current as soon as the motor is up to speed; if it is drawing more than the nameplate current, or the motor is noisy in delta, but not in star, stop the motor immediately and reconnect it in star, or the motor WILL burn out very quickly.
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  20. hooshang

    hooshang Active Member

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    Hello @speedy
    please look at this picture of ic5 I/o terminal block
    [​IMG]
    ive seen you have connection on both com No.2 and com No.5
    what is the deference between com No.2 and com No.5
    and where do you connect each one to?
    thank you friend for all information you share
    yours
    Hooshang

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