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Upgrade from D-Box 2 actuators to XXX? 4 actuators

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by Scott Triff, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    Hi All,
    I have a 2-DOF 1.5" D-Box set up on my vase rig.

    Absolutely love it, no issues.

    But I want to go to 3Dof 4 Actuator system, and at the same time get the 3" system.

    This is a very expensive upgrade...

    It wasn't until I came across this site that actually had me thinking of alternatives.

    The specs on the 3" actuators can be found here http://www.d-box.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Specsheet-EN_3in_Actuator.pdf

    What would I be looking at for an alternative, I mean with Actuators, software and anything else to make an alternative work?

    From what I gather Frex SCN6 (150mm) would be great or are there other alternatives similar to D-Box ?

    Many Thanks
  2. bsft

    bsft

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    So is that 3 DOF lift or 3 DOF drift (2 DOF + sway frame)
    Lift is expensive, but using Dc or Ac motors is probably cheaper than dbox, @BlazinH , can you advise as I think you have a 3 DOF lift system
    2 Dof balanced + drift frame, @Nick Moxley can advise on that as he has one.
    SCN6 compared to Dbox, maybe @nclabs can answer that.
  3. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    It would be a 3 DOF lift system I would be after.
    so 4 actuators at each corner of the rig
  4. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    To give a bit of creative context a 3600rpm motor with 36nm torque and 60:1 gearbox would have 60 rpm at the shaft. So using a 20mm CTC lever gives a linear velocity of 0.125664 m/s (125mm/s) with 1800 Newtons. It takes 9.8N per kg to counteract gravity so disregarding any mechanical loss each could lift 183kg.

    You can play around with different scenarios if you like: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/calculating-basic-linear-speed-and-forces.89/
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  5. bsft

    bsft

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    Sounds like aplan, but 20mm a bit slow perhaps.
    Still with a 3-4 DOF lift, id be inclined to do a full frame shoulder mount at rear and foot motor mount at front.
  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    I think it is a bit slow too @bsft, but compare it to the top end Dbox specs for context.
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  7. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    Thanks,
    But I think that info is a bit beyond me (well at the moment)
    I'll be using the actuators in the same original spot as the D-Box on the Vesaro rig.

    I was thing of a complete kit similar to this
    http://simxperience.com/products/accessories/motionstarterkits/150mmscn6motionstarterkit.aspx

    But with four actuators and of course not using their software (This was a reference of what I'm after)

    Even the ads on here regarding Fred Hyper Axis 100, would that be suitable?
  8. bsft

    bsft

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    @Scott Triff , I have tagged @nclabs again, but he is probably at work as he is in Italy. hes the SCN guy here and could advise, give him a day or so.
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  9. nclabs

    nclabs Active Member SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    This is a very hard topic. Nobody did ever tried to use 4 SCN6 to mimic the dboxes, for a very simple reason: SCN6 are a very different kind of actuators. For this reason we have no data about this model, but we can make some hypothesis. Keep in mind that all the specs you see of the SCN are always considered without any load attached on it, and this makes a huge difference on the speed and the acceleration capability. So, if the SCN6 version with 50 kg of force, can lift 50 kg, it will move very slowly. The dbox actuators are very expensive because of their strength (very little stroke, tho) that allows to keep the speed up high even when loaded with heavy weight. I'm thinking about a system of levers that should allow the SCN6 to reduce the strokes increasing the strength but, even though, I don't know if they are strong enough. In cases like this I think that deducing forces in a mathematical way it wouldn't help, because there are too much variables, we need to test it on the real ground. I have a pair of SCN6 with 40 kg of force, I can make some test on those but it would be in a 3-4 month time minimum. Anyway, if you want to do it, I'm here for technical advice.
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  10. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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  11. nclabs

    nclabs Active Member SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    Yeah, it's basically what I said, with no lever system it's quite deducible that it's not going to work (but we need to care about the weight of the rig + the driver, maybe with a very light rig and small person it's possible, with the 60 kg version of the SCN6) but with all the variables that you need to take in account with lots of moving parts of a levering system I think I will skip the math and try it, when I will find the time to do it.
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  12. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    Wow guys, what can I say but thanks for the info.

    Yes my if is heavy, it's 132KG + weight of the pedals, wheel etc (and me) so loaded I would think it would be around 220KG.

    Would SCN 5 be suitable, anyway I'll await nclabs to reply.

    Worst case I save a bit longer for the D-Box set up.
  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    It would be really useful to have @nclabs do some real world SCN testing and report the results.

    But with respect to your rig it is a pretty safe bet to say the SCNs will not be suitable for your rig, they just don't have the equivalent power to drive it.

    According to the maths you could do it with powerful AC or DC motors, that would be much cheaper than the Dbox and perform as well or better, but of course it would be a custom DIY build.
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  14. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    Thanks for that.

    With my full time work, and my restoration work I do, plus army reserves free time is something I don't have much of, so entertaining the idea of a DC motor set-up would be good, realistically it's something I just could not do.

    Are there any pre-built solutions?
  15. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    Thanks for that, so what I can gather no one is using the SCN5 or SCN6 for a rig like mine or weight wise.
    Apart from a DIY DC / AC motor approach, no real alternatives to using D-Box
  16. bsft

    bsft

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    @Scott Triff , if you are willing to explore and develop something yourself, then maybe. So stick with the Dbox Id guess
    Other wise, off the shelf solutions, start with Force Dynamics sims
  17. nclabs

    nclabs Active Member SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    For a lifting rig, you need to forget the SCN5, they are way too weak. Your rig it's even heavier that usual, so the problem will stay there even with SCN6 (60 kg*4 = 240 kg -> lots of problems) so I agree with the AC or DC solution they advised to you, very cheap and very strong but a bit complicated if you have no knowledge on this field. Are you really considering to but 4 actuators from d-box? Do you know how will the cost you? Something like a small car I think. Maybe you can ask to some user here if they can pre assemble the system for you to make it easier. Just guessing.
  18. Scott Triff

    Scott Triff New Member

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    Yes actually thinking of it, I currently have a 2 DOF D-Box set-up.
    I recently was diagnosed with cancer, had operation on Tuesday, but on the mend, and I have trauma insurance that should pay-out, so that would more than cover for the D-Box set-up but I don't want to use all of it, and have a considerable amount saved up already.

    I rather not spend that much money, but building an AC / DC solution would be out of my league I'm afraid.
    To be honest I don't know what one would even look like!
  19. bsft

    bsft

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    Theres 4 DOF dbox sims in the Gold Coast http://www.racecentre.com/
    You could try them first.
    a 4 DOF lift could look like anything. I recall @riton was building a 4 DOF. Maybe he can share or link it.
  20. nclabs

    nclabs Active Member SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    WTF! I hope you are getting better bro!
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