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Simulator sickness !

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by ericRacer, Oct 18, 2014.

  1. ericRacer

    ericRacer You get old because you stop playing ! Gold Contributor

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    Hi,
    I found a very interesting study of simulator sickness. By becoming aware of the event effects, it will be able to help you make some decisions about your future project
    Eric

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  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

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  3. bsft

    bsft

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    interesting document.
    Obviously written by someone with too much time on their hands, and I suspect hasnt played on a motion sim, nor spent actual time getting motion right to make the ride better for the individual person.
    I am also guessing that the researcher may have been paid by a possible commercial simulator company to specify certain things so they can advertise their product as "perfect". And everyone elses as crap.
    The writer states that design and movement is not related to real car movement.
    No S...T Sherlock! Its a game toy, we re-create movement best as we can, with single screens, multiple screens , HMDS, rifts and so on. Its an immersion thing and entertainment.
    I can also see this document turning up in a court case in the hands of some rabbit head wanting to put a liability claim against a simulator operator because they got a bit ill playing on a ride.
    Hence the person in question probably ignored the warning sign right in front of them and decided to try to make a substantial claim because of their own ignorance and stupidity.
    As for decisions about future projects, they are our rides, if we want to get sick playing on them , be it under influence of drugs or alcohol, illegal or otherwise, we will do so.
    I have a friend whom played on my sim, but he complained of the FFB being to hard on his wrists. Of which I explained to him that my 7 year old son has no problem, and you are 4 times his age. Toughen up princess.
    I also had another friend play for 15 mins on my sim and was concerned about the harshness of the motion, probably because he hadnt played on a motion sim ever. I did state it is not set any where near as harsh as it could be. And then a 10 year old kid had a wild time after that for the next 30 mins with no complaints.
    4 years and 14 frames later and possibly over 100 people from kids to adults playing, I still get the same reply and comments.
    "thats awesome man!" and they walk off with a big grin.
    I will go through the document more later and continue to pick holes at it.
    Cheers, David.

    Edit, the report is 10 years old! there is no clear information about the bloke whom wrote it anywhere, and this is the information age.
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  4. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    Had a quick read and agree with what is stated in the main. A real issue with HMDs (I have never felt sick with just monitors) and something which Oculus are very aware of. This is why they are striving for a high refresh rates etc for CV1. What it does not seem to talk thought, is how the human body will adapt (I certainly have with the Rift) and how some people just don't get motion sick. From my own experience, nearly all the people who have tried my Rift DK2 soon get motion sick after a few minutes (sometimes less) on high movement type games/sims. This 'sickness' seems to decrease the more you use the Rift.
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  5. bsft

    bsft

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    @ericRacer if you take this document as fact, youd better delete yourself off this site and not build a motion sim for yourself.
    That and ISRTV would have to close up
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  6. ericRacer

    ericRacer You get old because you stop playing ! Gold Contributor

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    Like seatime i agree with that.

    I know that this study is aged, but the problems that causes nausea have always existed. What has changed is the technology has improved to reduce nausea.

    I put this online survey to help DIYers make decisions more easily and thus not wasting money unnecessarily.

    Seatime is absolutely right when he says that the nausea decreases as usual. According to another study and personal experience.

    I practice on real simulator(flight simulator), and when I started, it was horrible. Now this is not as bad because we know that we should not drive the airplane too long on the ground because it is certain that we have the heart upside down. Although the simulator is worth millions of dollars!

    Occulus rift. Personally I would not be investing a dollar on that object. I know that the military have nausea with this stuff, yet they use gadgets to several thousands of dollars so I do not believe in a $300-$500 could be as good.

    I think for immersion, it is wiser to invest in a "triple screen" or "SuperFov" (flat screen or curved screen) or a "dome" from Paul Bourque.
    Then... that's just my humble opinion. :D
    Eric
  7. bsft

    bsft

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    Yes I can see the document talks alot about rifts and other displays, however, they are also talking about refresh rates of tvs as well as reaction times to motion cues as well not helping the nausea problem.
  8. Alexey

    Alexey Well-Known Member

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    People getting motion sickness from VR headsets? Who would have thought.....

    What's the point of this article? Don't swim in the water cause you might get wet?

    Yes I got sick the first time I used it, then a week later I was flying in war thunder having the best time of my life.

    People who want more immersion will go to whatever lengths to achieve that immersion regardless of short term side effects, sure some people can not get rid of those side effects but until you try it for yourself you can not determine how bad you will be affected.

    Personally from my experience with triple screens and the Rift, the Rift wins hands down with immersion. What it does loose in is the image quality which seems to have taken a great leap with DK2 and hopefully even better with CV1.
    I haven't bothered with DK2 as I am waiting for the better quality of the CV1.

    The headsets that the military use are total garbage I might add, they pay high prices because as soon as the government wants to buy something it's price goes up tenfold.

    Everyone likes things differently and I personally believe that these types of articles should not be used in determining ones decision whether to try something or not. Especially when the article is completely irrelevant because of technological advances. Just think, the Sega Dreamcast was released 10 years ago. It's like saying that the Dreamcast graphics are shit which means that you shouldn't buy a PS4....

    This article is irrelephant because it does not relate to elephants!

    News just in!
    I loled at one of the video game myths, see if you can pick it out.
    [​IMG]
  9. bsft

    bsft

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    Good info @Alexey , the document was written by a guy whom no longer seems part of the company it mentions. It does say that headsets can cause motion sickness.
    Big whoopy doo da!
    As you found, you felt a bit odd, but got used to it in no time.
    I still say it was a biased article against anything else except their product. And being an old article, it is way out of date.
  10. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    Initial sickness or not, IMO the Rift is still far better for immersion than any triple screen setup, I for one will be lining up for the Oculus CV1 when it is released.
  11. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  12. ericRacer

    ericRacer You get old because you stop playing ! Gold Contributor

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  13. Alexey

    Alexey Well-Known Member

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    Ok, garbage was a bit overkill. Maybe overpriced hyperbole suits better?
    Also that unit is for a different type of training where you would look at an instrument panel
    and have an overlay to interact with. Their enclosed version is certainly garbage with only 36 degree FOV.

    This is what $350 will get you http://www.oculus.com/dk2/
    I bet that the SX100 is not even under the $3000 mark.

    Slightly less resolution than the SX100 otherwise very similar, can't comment on persistence with the military spec unit as it does not mention anything. The military unit also weighs 2.5 pounds! Oculus is half that. The CV1 should even out spec DK2.
  14. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    So I'm confused as to why anyone would want to use VR headset for car racing sim - yes OK flight I can understand. When racing you really don't move your head that much at all - it's all in the eyes ;), I can understand when being passed (haha never happens to me!!) but other than that a single monitor will do the job - yes again tripple monitors or wrap aroound screen is better of course

    But to be fair I've not tried one and at the moment I don't have motion just the basic seat set up (motion to come soon I hope :) )

    When racing you should be looking way past where you're driving - certainly not at the apex of the corner you're taking (my tip of the day ;) )
  15. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    @Bluestoneracing VR is all about immersion. Sure it is still in its infancy and some of the implications such as low resolution impact particularly on racing sims, but there still is nothing in a monitor that matches the feeling of 'being there' in VR. Immersion is also why we build motion sims, they are to trick the mind regarding sensations rather than recreate a force. I get that VR is not for everyone but if you have a chance do try it...the sense of being in the car is astounding, something triple or wrap around monitors do not even come close to replicating.
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  16. Alexey

    Alexey Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, no one can be... told what the Oculus Rift is. You have to see it for yourself. [opens a pillbox, empties the contents into his palms and outstretches his hands] This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill [opens his right hand, to reveal the triple monitor setup], the story ends, you wake up in your sim and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill [opens his left hand, revealing the Oculus Rift], you stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the immersion feeling goes. Remember, all I'm offering is immersion. Nothing more.
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  17. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    I often drive on the track in real life and you do (and are taught to) turn your head and look through the apex of a corner before turn-in. This is normally not possible to do on a one screen monitor sim.
  18. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    Yes @SeatTime I’m not saying that you don’t turn your head, I’m just debating the amount. In other words I don’t feel that you turn your head enough to warrant a VR set. I am surprised though that you were ‘taught’ to turn your head as I would have thought that turning your head to see something was just a natural thing to do :p. Perhaps that’s the teaching in Aus, but then I did have a certain Mark Webber as an instructor some 20 years ago (of course way before he was a F1 driver and I’m sure he wouldn’t know me from Adam now!!) But he is Australian so I guess learnt over there before he came to the UK to become a race instructor.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you say look through the apex – you really shouldn’t be looking at the apex when going through the corner – when approaching the bend you should ‘spot’ the apex and then even before the apex look to the exit (you’ll always end up where you’re looking), then down the track again – in other words you should be looking pretty far ahead and that can easily be done on a normal single monitor as you can see the whole track.

    It's become the trend to fit tyre bails at the apex of certain chicanes and I know that if I think I'm going to hit them I'm close enough!! If I think I'm going to miss them I way too far away from the apex ;) I never look at them - it's way too late by then!

    I took my race seat setup to a couple of race meetings last season and a lot of drivers had a go – neither I or anyone commented or even thought that we needed to see more of the track that was possible on the small monitor I took.

    Again to be fair I race using HANS and a race seat with side head impact protection, plus of course I’m looking through a full face helmet (I don’t have to use a full face but choose to) so the amount of physical movement possible is actually pretty limited so maybe it’s just natural for me and all the other racers who used it to feel we can see enough of the track.

    I don’t want to get into a debate into real racing style or technique though as this isn’t the forum to do it and everyone has their own way I guess – there’s an old saying in racing ‘when the flag drops the bullshit stops’ ;)

    Also @noorbeast I’m not against VR sets, in fact I would love to try one :) – after all we are talking ‘virtual’ reality here and trying to get the best experience possible so I’m all for having anything to make it as real and enjoyable as I can :)

    The weird thing is that I took my race seat to a endurance race at Silverstone GP circuit last year and after practice I did a few laps on the sim, then I played both replays (sim and real) back – they looked exactly the same (well almost) when being replayed but felt completely different when driving them – now it’s obvious that they are going to feel different, but I mean the straights felt longer in the real car (I set up the exact same car as I was driving for real in the sim), but to look at in the replay they were almost the same – just strange to see. Again to be fair I did take Forza on an xbox for convenience and I know the tracks are nowhere near as accurate as other sim racing games.

    I think the best thing for me is to give VR a go and then report back – I’m always happy to give anything a go – as I just say I debat the real need for it to be able to race effectively.
  19. bsft

    bsft

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    ok I need to get epically stoned and go sim racing. Dont drink and drive, smoke and fly
  20. Bluestoneracing

    Bluestoneracing New Member

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    The beauty of sim racing ;)
  21. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    No interest in debating this, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Me out.
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