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Seattime's Sims

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by SeatTime, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind however that while we agreed its still just opinions (ours) and there necessarily isn't a right or wrong way or doing things, mostly a preference. And when it comes to some forces its nearly impossible to simulate the cause properly so all your left with is to simulate effect. Either way there are going to have to be some trade-offs made most of the time.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  2. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    Yep as @BlazinH said, there will never be a perfect system for our small sims. But I can attest, how much more immersion a G system will bring to any motion sim. My sim even though it is a 6DOF, feels 'dead' without them.

    Using my new seat today with NL2. Not perfect (don't think that will ever happen), but it is getting close.
    It's working very well and the paddles work basically the same as the GS5 seat. So the seat is basically a Gecko + GS5 seat with a active harness. I am very happy with it so far :) and as you know I have tried a few different systems.

    Video I did today of testing with NL2- unfortunately not much to see G seat wise, but you can see my body moving if you look closely.

    • Like Like x 2
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  3. Trip Rodriguez

    Trip Rodriguez VR Pilot

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Thanks for the video clip SeatTime. I'm thinking that I'm going to use your vest idea, but modify it to suit me. Remember when you posted about thinking you might crack a rib in the F-18? That's my kind of immersion! I will of course have safety features to prevent serious injury but it I can pull enough g's for it to actually make me back off... that's a dream come true!

    I think I'm going to have the vest basically permanently attached to the seat. You sit down, then pull it around you and attach the velcro in front. I also want the head mover, probably move it with small bungees so it's not dangerous. I'll have to see about adding additional features to the seat after that.

    I've committed to building my second 6DOF sim now, I found an awesome price and bought the motors/drivers so there's no going back now! I'm planning on about 450mm of travel, and it has to fit in a 7 foot by 11 foot space but I think I will maximize the footprint within those constraints to make more room for the legs and side consoles. I don't want to use the sim for really big angles once I've got a G-seat, but I do want really big heave travel. If I had my way I'd build one with more heave than the NASA Vertical Motion Simulator!

    I just really, really want a solution to the bass shaker issue with motion compensation. Since I'm a flyer I either need software motion compensation or a fully enclosed cockpit combined with a HMD that has only on-board sensors, and using only modest pitch angles on the 6DOF. I love my Index so I probably will stick with the first option.
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  4. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    New G seat add-on. Bottom Paddles - it only gets better :).

    New G Seat bottom panels.jpg
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  5. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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  6. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    Cool :thumbs.
  7. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    I hope you have better luck. I experimented using bladders to raise and lower my flaps and was able to get satisfactory results for a few laps but then my motors got hot. I even tried with two 600 watt motors albeit they were only 12vdc. Too much friction moving air thru hoses back and forth at the frequency needed for racing. I didn't test with flight however. And if you go with larger hoses to move more air it gets spongy.

    I've thought about trying bowden cables instead with a cam or lever somehow but my priorities have been developing the rest of my g-seat since you can get heave of sorts already from almost any motion rig. And I'm under the impression that using high torque servo motors for this is probably a fail in the long run but I would love to hear otherwise.

    I'm interested in how your experiments turn out with the way or ways your are trying but I understand if that's part of your top secret stuff. ;) If you tell me here though I promise I can keep a secret or two. :D
  8. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    I have tried bladders and found they were only good for light and long pressure tasks. I am using my old Bowden setup to drive all the paddles, slides and parasitic G systems, so it went together pretty quick. I am using the bottom paddles to give that sinking into the seat feeling you get when climbing in a aircraft (heave), or braking in a car (surge) as the 6DOF does a pretty good job for the normal heave, surge etc. With the harness and multi-moving seat back, it feels really good. With these new realistic plug-ins where the rig barely moves, it is were I get all my long motion cues from. I think a G seat/system is almost mandatory - the rig really feels dead without it. Remember, in a aircraft heave is the most predominate motion/force that you will feel.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  9. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Thanks SeatTime.

    I have solved both of those issues. Both surge and sway feels and works great. The other day I got muscle cramps due to having the pressure dialed up more than what I was acclimated to. But surge and sway are low oscillation events compared to heave and that is where the overheating issue arises. But with the few laps I could get in before this happened heave was bliss too. What I really like about bladders though is they allow a great amount of flexibility allowing each user to adjust some aspects so pressure is applied in the locations that gives them the best individual experience.

    I used my bottom paddles for pos. and neg. heave only and use a different solution for applying surge forces. While I have a 3 dof rig with heave plus traction loss I've downgraded to a 2 dof with traction loss for testing with my g-seat so I was attempting to replace the lost vertical heave with heave on my g-seat (attempting to make it more compatible with WMR). So I was applying heave forces opposite of you. My g-seat software allows every dof to be reversed and adjusted while on-the-fly though so its easy to experiment without having to stop to alter axis assignments.

    Agree 100%. A motion rig needs only to supply visual and vestibular cueing while a g-seat or system is necessary to provide haptics.


    On a side note I've also solved the leaking bladder issue.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  10. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    With the success of my current G system setup, I'm seriously think of stripping down my 6DOF and using all the hardware for a full blown 'G capsule', basically a 12 channel G system + sub-sonics. This will allow me to drop the capsule to the floor, which will make access so much easier and reduce its footprint. With the capsule being basically stationary, it would also simplify allot of the other mechanical systems and with the inertia so low on the moving parts it will be very fast/reactive. Note that similar to my current G setup, it will not just be pressure based, with key areas still able to move within the capsule. It won't be a 'cheap' or simple system (although I will mainly be using what I already have), but I think it will be very effective and excellent for simulation, oh and no issues with VR and motion cancellation :). If you told me that I would be thinking about doing this six months ago, I would have laughed at you :rolleyes:.
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    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  11. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    I love it :). What a far out but groovy idea :cool:. If anyone can make it happen you can bud :thumbs. Would love to see what you come up with but I understand if you go dark ;).
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    This is my G Capsule Servo Motor Allocation so far. Have one spare slots left that I may/may not use until later.

    1 Back Seat - Surge/Heave
    2 Back Seat - Sway
    3 Bottom Seat - Surge
    4 Bottom Seat - Sway
    5 Bottom Seat - Heave
    6 Top Belts - Surge/Heave
    7 Hip Belts - Heave/Surge
    8 Torso Vest Surge/Heave
    9 Thighs/Heave
    10 Head - Sway
    11 Head - Surge
  13. BiT0

    BiT0 Member

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    How many servo motors for the 12 ch?
    What kind of servo do you use?
  14. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    12 ch = 12 motors but I am only going to use 11 - most are 12V DC motor rated at 48 amps driving a ballscrew linear 'gearbox'. EG see picture below:

    G system setup.jpg
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  15. MarkusB

    MarkusB Active Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Wow, that really looks like a sophisticated system.
    I am just wondering about the missing roll and pitch axis for satisfying your vestibular system. Don‘t you consider these axis to be important, e. g. for flight or rollercoaster simulations?
    I remember you mentioning that you liked the rig rolling to one side, while your g-vest was pulling you into the opposite direction.
  16. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I was also of the same opinion that I needed roll and pitch to keep my vestibular system happy, but the more features I have added to my G systems, the more redundant the 6DOF has become and often now gets in the way, with the odd miss cues that any purely motion system must give. To get away with this the G-system as you can tell above needs to be quite complex, but it comes with so many advantages for me. Not expecting anyone else to do the same, just putting it out there for information.
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  17. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    For racing at least my downgrade to a 2dof with minimal angles along with my g-seat is quite sufficient to achieve good immersion. But imho for racing the use of traction loss also is a game changer and I wouldn't like going without it.

    I agree motion and g simulation can detract from each other, mostly motion makes the effects of g's lesser. Best example is acceleration (non 6 dof); motion moves the seat backwards while g's push forwards to apply pressure on the back mostly with an equalizing effect.

    One thing I noticed missing though was thighs/sway. Did you purposely omit it and believe its not necessary with your other systems?

    Oh, and I misspoke in my previous thread above stating high-torque servo motors and meant to say high-torque RC servos.
  18. sberns

    sberns Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, SCN5, Arduino
    Sounds very cool! I am curious how you have incorporated your head sway/surge effects? If I remember correctly, you are a VR user - how do you get your “head” effects to work and not disrupt tracking etc while playing in VR?
  19. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    I have tried lots of different solutions for head sway/surge effects and found that if I fit the VR headset to a well fitting helmet, that I get the best results - it feels very natural and worries VR the least, which is not the case for some other solutions. In operation you could not really see much happening, as it is forced based and expects you to fight the movement as you would in real life.
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    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  20. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Motion platform, 6DOF
    My current G-seat actually has traction loss built in, but you also get a differential between your body and the steering wheel, as your would in a real car and you also have constant pressure applied to the side of your body (which is missing in the standard traction loss setup) as your would in a real car from the paddles. So not missing much there. Its a similar thing for all the other forces that my 6DOF use to give me, but IMO just better (its why I have so many G-Seat channels).
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019