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Raising funds for a set of motion simulator plans

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by Roadster2, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    (Admin - apologies if you feel this is posted in the wrong forum, please move it if you wish)

    Having been terribly excited by the X-Sim team cracking the motion simulator using the SCN5 actuators I am disappointed to still have no time to start looking at what could be done with it.

    I was one of the donation members that helped get SirNoName the SCN5 actuators so that a solution could be found. What I am wondering is if it were possible to run a similar 'campaign' to fund a member, or members, putting together a set of clear and concise plans that would enable the more average members, those that haven't the time to glean all of the amazing information in various places on the X-Sim site and forums and who don't have time to experiment, to be able to put together a good motion seat. The electronics are now simple enough but I'm sure that a lot of interested members would love to have a set of easy to follow instructions on building the hardware for the motion seat. As T-Slot aluminium can be so expensive, and difficult to obtain unless you're in the States, then preferably I would like to see the plans use a more standard steel square tubing or similar but even a set of plans using T-Slot aluminium would be great if this was available. A list of possible sources for specialised components would also be a benefit.

    Whilst this would hopefully enable many more members to build a motion seat I would really like to see this roll on to a set of follow up plans for a full motion simulator. SimCraft now offer a set of plans to make a powered 'Joyrider' type simulator but this goes hand in hand with their own electronics, bearings and actuator kit (at US $3000). This uses electro-mechanical actuators so I'm assuming that it may not be a major task to hook up this type of simulator to the X-Sim software and use the SCN5 or SCN6 actuators and thereby bring this type of simulator within the budget of many more sim fans. If SimCraft can produce a good set of plans then I'm positive that the calibre of members on the X-Sim site could produce something.

    Alternatively, a set of plans for something along the lines of the Riton 2DOF project with AC Gearhead Motors which would offer a Blue Tiger type simulator.

    Unfortunately I don't have the time available to co-ordinate this type of venture but it seems to me that the campaign to secure the SCN5 actuator was so successful that using a similar method to raise funds to produce a good set of plans for a motion seat and a motion simulator stands a good chance of success. Many of us on these forums would love to own a Blue Tiger or a SimCraft simulator but simply could not justify, never mind afford one. The ability to put together, relatively easily, a real cost effective alternative using the X-Sim software would have us reaching for our wallets - wouldn't it ......................................

    .
  2. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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  3. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Hi Bernard

    Many thanks for the links. I had seen the Woodcrusher but I hadn't come across the Mr Burns post and I will certainly have a good look through this.

    With regard to the cost effective DIY kits and plans please keep me posted. This does sound very interesting.
  4. bobdahaxor

    bobdahaxor New Member

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    I plan on starting a project very soon, so if you want to aid me in my venture, I'd be glad to go the extra mile with the drawings and etc! So far I have the steel tubing situated and the power supply and the seat and the wheel and pedals. Now I just need the linear actuators and the electronics!
  5. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Hi Sirnoname

    Many thanks for the response. I appreciate what you say but the commercial simulators usually have a reasonable range of adjustments built-in (although not always can accomodate a 6' 4 height!!). I assume that easiest way to 'adjust' the Frex type motion seat is to allow the pedals to be moved.

    In a 'plans kit' things like Shifter mount and keyboard racks etc. could be given as options, including being able to fix on the left side or the right. Many users could probably come up with something themselves once once the plans kit had given them the confidence to build the initial simulator.

    With regard to the actuators for moving a complete simulator perhaps this might be a project for the future. Discover exactly what actuators some commercial units are using and see if these can be obtained and brought into the X-Sim arena. As a Blue Tiger type unit would also appeal to the flight sim community there would hopefully be a larger pool of resources and more members willing to 'contribute' to the research fund.

    (thanks for your great work with the SCN5 actuators etc.)

    Regards
    Iain
  6. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, 4DOF
    I'm pretty sure the X-Sim community has the talent to produce some great cockpit designs, I will tell you however, that finding the time to dedicate to documenting the intricate workings is very difficult to find.

    Why not use the SimCraft plans and/or STAR Kits; how could it be better? How does your design differ, is it a FREX style seat mover? Our full motion chassis plans represent hundreds of hours of engineering based on hundreds of hours of research and over a dozen different iterations of chassis models, the advantage of being a motion simulation professional.

    [​IMG]

    The working applications of X-Sim seems flexible enough to accommodate a CENTER OF MASS ARCHITECTURE; :blush2: yes like the Joyrider/Rock n' Ride. Although, I submit that the SimCraft Architecture was first published at or before these others (circa 1998) and now offers a machined rotary bearing assembly (SimCraft Knuckles) specifically designed for motion simulator rotations. During any Sim build, you are going to incur some expenses for hardware, why buy a part designed to perform a different job instead of comparably priced hardware professionally designed for motion simulation? I believe that there is still plenty of design/build work in creating your own full motion chassis and cockpit without having to research and source all the parts yourself.

    SimCraft offers an API into their software for custom applications/algorithms as well, although the source isn't public, there is support for the software.

    Michael Boardman
    SimCraft Information Officer
  7. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, 4DOF
    Thanks for your reply.

    I believe that our hardware could be controlled by the X-Sim software but is there a real interest in that? The software seems very flexible but the (weak) actuator hardware recommended leaves X-Sim users with only the option for a seat mover sim unless they want to roll their own solution for actuators; like Thanos' Center of Mass Architecture Sim.

    Like I said, if there is an interest in using commercial hardware kits like ours to build full motion simulators, a plug-in could probably be developed that would interface to our hardware.

    Michael Boardman
  8. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, 4DOF
    Don't limit your search to a specific brand, focus on the Architecture; thus the resulting motion experience.

    For example:
    joyrider yields 339 posts, most particularly Thanos' excellent plans for a full motion simulator using simple casters and wiper motors (yet not complete).
    rock and ride yields 58 posts for that brand.

    All I'm am asking is if it is better to:
    • A) Buy a commercial product designed for another purpose, furniture casters and windshield wiper motors, figure out how to control it all and interface it to your computer.
    vs.
    • B) Buy a commercial product designed specifically for motion simulation with a USB plug.

    Either solution still leaves much customization of cockpit, controls, and gauges available. This thread started mainly about the DIY motion simulator hardware and the options for Sim builders. I'll submit that with your level of technical knowledge and industry and the fact that you have already built a sim, maybe you have no need for a packaged motion kit.
    (Unless you want much more powerful actuators :) )

    Michael
  9. simcraft

    simcraft New Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, 4DOF
    You've got the spirit, I would put labor a bit higher than 300€, depends on what your time is worth.

    Our system
    $3000 (~2100€) for the motion system
    $300 (~210€) for materials
    $3300 (~2310€) TOTAL for full motion simulation VS ~$2000 (1400€) for a seat mover.

    ~$427 (300€) for your seat (may already have one)
    Ready to go

    With DIY you still need to design other parts like wiring and mounting your actuators so they don't slip. Luckly you don't have to write software thanks to X-Sim.

    We have tried the DIY solution; which is now open sourced; but many users weren't technical enough to complete a working sim. Smart industrious guys like you and Thanos have done it and help others figure these things out, but not all are on your level.

    Or, someone could DIY it COMPLETELY using a Center of Mass Architecture according to SimCraft's plans without paying us anything. This was an option with which I responded to the thread. Use the plans and buy your own hardware, but build a full motion sim instead of a seat mover! Take the plans and use the plans, why not?

    Here is another Center of Mass Architecture X-Sim work in progress using much of the same techniques as sims that are compatible with our kit.

    We hope to pull more costs out or even individually sell components, but still feel this is a fair starting price.

    Michael
  10. srdjan

    srdjan New Member

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    OK,
    I think it is the time for me me to get into this matter.I am one of the persons who is willing to build one or more simulators.In difference to others my budget is not so limited and I want to find myself a version that is not only just seat mover. I was in contact with a simcraft manager and he told me that a complete price of the hardware with sending to Europe would be
    SimCraft STAR sc028 $3,695.00
    * 2 Axis (Roll, Pitch) Motion
    * 200mm of stroke
    * Open license for all SimCraft software FREE FOR LIFE
    PLus Shipping | Door to Door $1,135.68
    SUBTOTAL
    $4,830.68
    I think that we are now talking to a much more elevated figures then that one you are trying to point out.
    And what in fact I need is the 2 actuators the interface of yours and the software.All other is easily made here.
    So I think you should for example start revising the possibilty like for me to be able to buy these 3 things for a lower price and then i think you would get more buyers from this forum and other websites as well.
    Regards,
    Srdjan
  11. beazleybub

    beazleybub New Member

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    Delete me

    Delete me
  12. tronicgr

    tronicgr

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    Speaking of cost of my DIY joyrider typer motion simulator:

    Total cost was almost 750 euro in materials:

    PVC = 250 euro
    metal parts: 150 euro
    used wiper motors: 50 euro
    bucket seat: 120 euro
    AMC1.5 & DSMhb1.2b PCB's : 60 euro
    Deep cycle marine battery: 120 euro

    The computer screen and wheel/joystick controls that is up to the users choice ... so not really counted in motion sim cost...

    Regards,
    Thanos
  13. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Well, the posting is certainly promoting some good discussion.

    Thanks to Michael for your input (really appreaciated) but Sirnoname really hit the nail on the head when he said it's down to costs. The really excellent work done by various X-Sim community members means that it's now very cost effective for a DIY'er to build their own working motion seat simulator. Granted the majority of us would love to be able to afford something like the SimCraft simulator but quite simply we can't, not even in kit form.

    Courtesy of the X-Sim forums we can now obtain the information on using the SCN5 actuators and interfaces etc., we can access the X-Sim software to run the simulator, all we need now is a set of good instructions on building a frame, with materials list, sizes, assembly information and possible suppliers.
    The use of T-Slot aluminium makes this task easier but outside of the USA this can be difficult, and usually expensive, to obtain. Even so, detailed plans using T-Slot would still be warmly welcomed as members could still make significant savings over the commercially available units. Plans using much less expensive steel tubing would be great but I appreciate that this would reduce flexibility in adapting to each users sizing requirements.

    I have commented that members could make significant savings over buying similar commercial units but there will also be many members who could never contemplate buying a commercial unit. These members could now have the opportunity to own a motion seat simulator that was previously only a wild dream.

    Making available such a set of plans could in itself be a commercial proposition. Raising funds by donation to purchase an SCN5 actuator etc. which allowed X-Sim 'development' members to reach the stage we're at now did seem to work really well. However, the fund raising was aimed at achieving a fixed cost and I can see problems in trying to use this method to achieve what would effectively be an unknown target cost.

    Rather than looking to raise funds by donation perhaps it might be possible to have some form of members poll where members interested in being able to purchase a set of detailed construction plans could 'register' an interest and possibly what level of cost they would deem 'acceptable'. If an existing member knew what return could be available to them it might tempt them to produce such a set of plans.
  14. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    IMHO, X-Sim has enabled creative expression in motion simulator design and because it has the ability to interface with nearly any hardware, a DIY builder is free to build whatever he dreams up. Also, SirNoName seems eager to support additional hardware, so I am confident that if I ever discover additional cost-effective hardware, that he would build a plugin in.

    My observation is that very few people have the same design objectives and express themselves in different ways through their simulator designs and goals.

    I dont want to shoot down your idea, but I think that you would run into some difficulty creating one set of plans. Everyone who contribted to the project would have a different vision of what this simulator should be, and what actuators should power it, etc... Would it be 3DOF, or 2DOF, RNR style or Frex style or some other style?

    These forums contain the knowledge required to assemble a simulator that resembles your own vision. It may not be well organized YET, but the information is here. For example, each major design area of an SCN5 based simulator has been discussed and documented here. As opposed to an exact roadmap, you get to see the pros and cons of each design approach and arrive at your own conclusion based on what is right for you.

    Take for example the discussion of an SCN5 seats pivot point. Some use rubber, I use a universal joint. Search around and you'll see many detailed discussions on these subjects. Another good example would be the conversation of actuator angles which is also well documented here. The answer to both of these questions is not one size fits all. For example, the actuator angle is dependent upon the expected weight of the occupant and the pivot point really depends on your budget. If you have a specific question about design, just ask it, and some of us with experience in these matters will be happy to comment.

    All of this being said, not everyone has the skills required to complete EVERY aspect of their project and this is why there is room for commercial options or kits IMHO. For example, if you do not understand electronics and have the ability to solder, you will probably purchase a commercial adapter as opposed to making your own even though the commercially adapter costs twice the amount of making your own. In every category of this market, there are DIY options and commercial options.

    -Build your own actuator or buy one?
    -Build your own simulator frame or buy one?
    -Build your own adapters or buy one?
    -Build your own shiftewr or buy one?
    -Build your own wheel or buy one?

    X-Sim has made the build your own option possible and if you have the skills to do so, of course it's going to be cheaper to build your own. If you do not have the skills for one of these areas, then SOME commercial parts may be best for you. The difficulty in this industry is finding fairly priced commercial options. Stay tuned, I intend to offer a variety of fairly priced parts for DIY builders soon.

    :cheers:
  15. Roadster2

    Roadster2 Member

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    Hi Bernard

    I can understand exactly what you're saying but users purchasing a commercial simulator would be taking more or less a fixed chassis. Yes there would normally be a few options available but the main chassis would usually offer little in the way of particular customisation. Users purchasing a set of plans would therefore be no worse off and because they would be building it themselves some users would in fact 'customise' the build as they were doing it. Something that wouldn't be available to them if purchasing a commercially available simulator. As many of us know from using Microsoft Wizards, it's very much easier to customise something on which the basics are already there rather than start from scratch.

    I do look forward to the future options that you mention, please keep me posted.

    Regards
  16. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    You are right and even in the cases where it is possible to run both pieces of software, who would want to burden their PC with two pieces of software performing the same function of extracting data from the games!

    I hope that you are correct because SimXperience is founded on this DIY open concept and uses X-Sim for this reason and many others. I am sure that some companies will not adopt this method because it causes them to have to give up too much control of their product and the small dollars available in the DIY market simply arent worth it when they are already able to sell $25,000-$500,000 simulators.

    It is sometimes quite difficult for me trying to build a company based on X-Sim. I will send a PM with some suggestions, but if you are going to get support from other manufacturers, X-Sim will probably need some kind of partner program that provides a two-way flow of information between the parties about things like upgrades, future plans, etc.. (Microsoft does not release a new OS without giving it to Dell and HP for testing months before-hand ;D )

    Very good point, and another reason why I am glad to be a part of this community.

    :cheers:
  17. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    Do the creators of open source projects work for commercial companies simply because they consider their ideas and communicate with the entire community about what is next for the software?

    Earlier you wrote So the XSim project could be a good alternative for companies to sell
    their hardware as 3rd party devices.

    Your comment above (there will be no support for commercial companies) is the exact reason why it is not an excuse and why it is not a good alternative for them to sell their hardware. An established hardware manufacturer will probably not choose to support X-Sim by providing drivers etc.. when he can't even get his hands on beta versions for testing of his drivers or X-Sim add-ons before his end users do. This is what I mean by partnering. Maybe this word translates differently because your reaction to the term partner is far different than what I am trying to communicate?

    Partnering does not require a company and it does not require you to work for these commercial companies. It simply means that it if you want them to base a product on X-Sim, that they will require a few things from you that are not present today in order to do that successfully.

    So for example, as I develop the Commander software (an attempt to make X-Sim accessible to non-technical users and grow this community), I am left in the dark about changes coming in X-Sim. Then suddenly, a new version arrives and I find out about it at the same time as my users (through an upgrade mechanism that cannot be disabled) even though I am on the beta team and have been faithfully committed to X-Sim and X-Sim testing.

    Even open source projects have a project roadmap that gives everyone an idea of whats coming in the future for the software. And they also provide prerelease versions to those who have surrounding software or drivers for testing purposes. This is all I mean by partnering.

    This depends on the size of the company. Many cost related factors (at least here in the U.S.) are based on volume. This is something that I am struggling with presently. I am not a large company with alot of money, so I cannot afford to buy dozens or even hundreds of simulators to place in inventory. If I could, I could sell the SimXperience Motion base at a price close to the Woodcrusher. As it stands right now, the SimXperience DIY motron base will not be as cheap as the Woodcrusher project, but will be able to be obtained more cost effectively than any other commercial option. Hopefully later once I generate enough revenue to purchase an inv entory, I will be able to provide a project in the $1000 range. This is going to be difficult though since the actuators alone are more than 80% of this cost.

    Please tell me how you are able to cut costs in half at your company without large purchasing power? I would love to be able to cut more costs without compromising product quality!
  18. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    I agree that an open discussion is always best because it allows for end-user feedback to be involved as well.

    This is dissapointing to read because I think that it makes it unlikely that we will see many 3rd parties providing drivers or tight X-Sim integration, which means that you will have to take the time time build them all or they will be provided by other hobbyists. Hopefully these other hobbyists will be working with hardware vendors that have partner programs so that their drivers will be consistently reliable and they will know in advance of breaking changes.

    For the SimXperience DIY product series, this is not a problem because X-Sims' support for the SCN5 is good. Unfortunately most of the other ideas / innovations in my two-year plan require tighter integration with the motion control engine than you seem willing to provide. :(

    To answer your question, I do not know if other private programmers would provide this or not because I am not aware of any other private closed source program that has been as successful at generating 3rd party interest.


    BTW- Your idea about the pub is a very good one.
  19. Mambo

    Mambo New Member

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    Little OT, there is plugin where you can insert math equations and control for example trought USO AMC ? or its in developement ? (just curiosity)
  20. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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    Excellent work!
    Excellent work!

    Excellent work!
    Excellent work!
    Good start, but in IMHO some more integration functionality is needed in this area.

    I believe that in addition to X-Sim's excellent quality of motion, that more is needed. A simulator profile is more than just a motion profile. It is also controller profiles and game settings, etc... My vision is to be able to assign all of these to a single button. I think that this is a good goal and if successful, we will put X-Sim well ahead of it's commercial software competitors in even more areas.

    As you know, I am experimenting with voice control, in-sim cameras and a variety of other cool simulator technologies. Some of these require a bit more integration with X-Sim. For example, it would be great to be able to have a simulator start/stop api that I could interface with with my voice commands. I could do this through FindWindow, SendKeys, etc... but with automatic updates and no preview of new releases, I cannot provide the X-Sim community with the benefit of voice activation. I also have many other ideas that I think will be exciting additions to X-Sim that I do not wish to discuss here in front of my competitors.

    I have read the documentation many times and am working on a Race 07 plugin that supports the rear actuator. Additionally, I am mapping the Netkar values.

    I think that if we had this process in place, it might make 3rd party hardware manufacturers more likely to work with us. I will take this testing work if noone else is interested. However, I do not own all of the hardware to conducr thorough tests of all aspects of X-Sim.

    I do not wish to make more work for you. I think that companies who care about their reputation will be hesitant to provide an interface to a system that has automatic upgrades and they will not have access to the beta software before the release. If something in the new release were to expose an issue in their driver that was not shown in the previous release then they would have hundreds of angry customers who could not use their hardware. A responsible hardware vendor would not want to be in this reactionary position, rather he would want to test with the new release in advance so that he could ensure his reputation and the quality of his product. In the process of doing so, he would indirectly also be helping to ensure the quality of X-Sim.