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Question Project planning - motion g-seat or platform for completed flight simpit?

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by mariner3302, May 27, 2022.

  1. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    Hi,
    After looking at some motion g-seat rigs like Bergison's, I'm am wondering if they would be a better option than a Stewart platform for adding motion to my flight simpit. Initially, I just thought the platform so everything moved. Now though, I am starting to think that the moving seat would be more immersive in VR because it would alter your interaction with the controls. Pulling you away or pushing you closer as the seat moves in relation to aircraft attitude, pulling positive and negative The, etc. It would also seem to simplify adding it to the pit. Does anyone have experience or advice they can offer on plus's and minus's of either?
    I have been looking to buy another house after selling mine last year and so my simpit is in storage. So, in the meantime, I am starting to plan the building of the motion side of my pit. I will be putting a g-seat style system in which I also am starting to plan out. The pit is a scale F-14 pilot front office minus the front displays. All switches, levers, buttons, etc work and control the functions in conjunction with PointCTRL. I have vibrating transducers under the back and bottom seat covers. I use it primarily in DCS but also P3D, FlightGear, and FS2020 with the Reverb G1 HMD. The simpit is constructed out of a C-17 pilot seat with aluminum rails that hold the stick and pedals. The side panels are removable. I got the seat as a set of 6 along with the training station from a pallet used to train AWACs operators. I have sold the seats I don't need. 2020-02-14 17_21_08.jpg image005-1.jpg 20190627_144913.jpg image001.jpg 20190627_150645.jpg JPEG_20190314_153309.jpg image003-1.jpg image002.jpg
    I know that the panels, wiring, and everything will need bracing and tidying up to withstand the motion of a full motion platform if I choose to move the whole unit in 6 DOF.
    I hope the question makes sense. Sometimes what you don't know that you don't know can really bite you so whatever advice I get will be helpful. Am I asking the right questions?
  2. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    I think a stewart platform is the best solution and you may as well get it right first time

    However it may be easier to build a 2dof first and then evolve into a 6dof later
  3. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    Thanks for the reply! Why would you go with the Stewart? Ease of build, immersion, or something else? I do believe in doing it right the first time. Do you recommend the 2dof just to get into motion and go through the learning curve? It would seem that it would be a totally different build than to start out with the 6dof? I will also be building a second pit that will be for helicopter and non fighter aircraft simming. I have been looking at this from the pit building and motion as separate entity's.
    As I said, I don't know what I don't know so I need to have the obvious to the experienced explained and direction toward where to study and learn. I was hoping to be able to sketchout what I need and how to integrate it all before I get to actually buying and assembling. I also thought that if I could put together a small scale miniature type system to learn from, that scaring up wouldn't be that hard. Is that a good plan or is it better to just go for broke?
  4. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Both can be complimentary and each has its pros and limitations.

    A number of members like @SeatTime and @MarkusB have experience with both, others such as @early_m started with a G-Seat and are now contemplating a 6DOF, so likely can explain why.
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
  5. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    A lot to learn from you and your build, Gadget! It is supposed to be scaling up in my last post but I can't seem to edit it.
  6. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    Great! I will look at their posts and builds!
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    A 6dof is a lot of work and will take longer than you expect - but it will give you the best possible motion

    A 2dof will get you a build quicker and the parts can be used again for a 6dof

    Make sure you spec powerful motors, plenty of sims fail because the motors are too weak
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    There are some forum limitations until after 5 posts, to help prevent spam. See the Forum FAQ tips here regarding editing posts and much more: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/forum-tips.14/category
    • Like Like x 1
  9. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    Ok, thanks!

    When planning either build, how much motion is needed to get the immersion in VR? It would seem less is needed since you can't see the outside world. Any opinions and has anyone found a sweet spot to shoot for?
  10. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    A driving sim does not need much movement

    A flight sim benefits from a longer range, but probably not a much if you use vr
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    That's what I was thinking too. Even just the vibration transducers have good effect in that regard. It would seem shorter stroke length would aid in speed of reversal but does it effect the power/size needed of the actuator also? Longer stroke = larger actuator? The weight carrying and moving ability would be the same, I think. I saw a tool where you can build your pit design and with measurements and it will give you the size of the motors and actuators. I have to figure out how to use that.
    If I get everything built up to but before the actual physical platform, such as wiring, hardware, and programs,etc then use smaller actuators and motors, etc then it should be set to scale up the actual platform, correct? Essentially build a working model and then scale up? Since my pit and tools and everything is stored, I could at least get that part together is what I'm thinking. Is that about right?
    Last edited: May 28, 2022
  12. mariner3302

    mariner3302 New Member

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    I can edit now! Whew! Lol
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  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    You can simulate a simulator, and use it to learn about settings and motion profile tuning: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/simulate-a-simulator.350/

    Or build a working model to test design ideas: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/build-a-working-model-to-test-your-design-ideas.216/

    But on the control side a PID should be adjusted to suit the actual hardware, design and mass: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/a-laymans-analogy-guide-to-pids-pid-tuning.219/

    Same with refining a motion profile: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/steps-to-create-a-motion-profile.228/
  14. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    AC motor, Motion platform
    For simplicity, just copied over from my thread :

    Why not a 6 actuator stewart platform? Nothing against them, but I have owned one and ease of access is not good, with allot of my friends never able to get into it. Also as I wanted to move away from DC motors, could see a better way to use the required new 6 AC actuators.
    Why 3 and not four Actuators for motion? Cost and I see no advantage in using 4, plus there are no issues with calculating ground touch points which is the case for a 4 actuator system.
    Fixed mounted actuators with rails for adjusting for motion? Less inertia (my actuators are seriously heavy), as only a small part of the actuator actually is in motion. Means less unwanted vibration, which can be a issue in any motion system.
    Both end supported Ball-screws with separate linear sliders supporting the weight of the Rig. No issues with screw distortion with varying weight loads or whipping at high speeds (especially for long screws like I have). These can cause resonance/vibrations of the actuator in operation. Also the height of the sim can be much lower even with long screws.
    Why AC servo motors? No brainer/very powerful/almost plug-play for any sim that needs to carry your full weight + sim and the price is not that different when you add in all the extras required for a reliable high powered DC system.
    Big Heave Motion : Found through building many sims that it is near impossible to do this force well via G systems, note though that big heave requires fast/powerful actuators 500mm/sec minimum. Actually fast/powerful actuators are good for any DOF, as if you cannot make the required simulation point in the required time the motion can be clipped as it tries to catch up.
    Roll Motion: Really helps the inner ear for simulation and can reduce motion sickness.
    Pitch Motion: As above.
    Surge: Will be using a harness system and paddles (torso) to give extended forces with just a touch of initial pitch motion (again for the inner ear), for surge impulses and to minimise any unwanted secondary movement.
    Sway: Will be using two independently driven paddles and again a touch of roll. The paddles will also help for surge. Not a fan of using much motion for sway, as unwanted secondary movement can be very noticeable.
    Yaw : Its a compass heading, so no advantage to use it in my sim, with any simulation forces caused by it captured by the DOFs above.
    Other G systems? These can help, but bang for buck the above do a very good job.
    Hope the above helps to explain why I have built what I have.

    Hope the above helps in your planning.
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