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Looking to build ~$500 2DoF sim, but no experience

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by S.N., Apr 28, 2017.

  1. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    Hi, guys! My name is Larry, and I'm new to the world of motion simulator building (or any sort of large-scale engineering project for that matter). I am a college student and will be working a job on campus this summer, so I figured a cheap (~$500) 2DoF simulator would be a fun summer project!

    I play mostly racing games, although the games I would most like to use the simulator for (Mario Kart Wii, Super Monkey Ball, and Kirby AirRide) don't seem to have plugins written yet. I am a decent programmer, but I nonetheless anticipate extracting the motion data to be a challenge…

    I have little experience in mechanical design and even less in electronics (motors, power supplies, controls, etc.). I have am considering building a Joyrider since its design seems to be the most well-laid out for a beginner (and centering the mass at the pivot points is clever). I know very little about motors and how to control them, so I anticipate using 2 wiper motors and 2 JRKs (~$350/$500 budget).

    I have also looked into a SimforceGT-style design more suited for racing sims, but I couldn't find detailed enough instructions for a total beginner. Also, the instability of the seat/rider's mass being way above the pivot is both great (for wild/rough forces) and horrible (for the motors).

    As I said, I have very little experience with mechanical design, welding, electronics, motors, CAD, etc., so a straightforward step-by-step design would be best. If I could build it over a weekend or two at a cost of ~$500, that would be perfect!

    Do you have any recommendations/advice?

    I'm new and would love your help this summer. Thank you!

    Sincerely,
    Larry
  2. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I would suggest some time spent researching and planning would be really helpful.

    You can check out existing member builds here: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/forums/diy-motion-simulator-projects.22/

    And the FAQs are a gateway to a huge amount of information: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/

    Perhaps start in the Design section: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/design-considerations-resources.24/category

    Given a focus on racing and a limited budget I would suggest you consider a seat shaker design, like the shoulder mounts that are so popular, as that has significant inherent design leverage and the least mass to move. That will make the most of the limited power of the wiper motors. While a joyrider could be used for racing it is more suited to a flight sim and can be a bit more complex to build.

    JRKs are simple but not cheap. If your budget does no stretch that far then Arduino+MMs can be a cheaper option.

    An alternate option is some sort of G-seat design.
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  3. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    Thank you for your quick reply! I have spent a decent amount of time browsing the designs here and watching videos of them in action on YouTube. Unfortunately, most projects don’t have detailed instructions on how to build them. Most only give overviews of the general design but leave out details like lengths, voltages, exact motors used, etc. If you come across a design that has particularly detailed instructions (like the Joyrider design), please send me a link. I’ve been unable to find one to follow.

    Although I’m curious to hear more about the tradeoff between less-mass + pivot way off-center (seat shaker) and heavier + pivot at center of mass (Joyrider), I agree that a seat shaker design is probably a better option. My main concerns with a seat shaker are the wobbliness of the base while being used, the math behind the motion, and attaching safety harnesses. Also, I have not yet found a step-by-step guide for making one, and I am hesitant to try without much guidance/experience.

    I agree, but I would rather not risk ruining a motor because of my extremely limited knowledge of electronics. If I can fit them within budget, I will definitely be going with JRKs (assuming they really are as easy to use as people say).

    Thank you again for your help. If you find detailed instructions for a cheap seat shaker sim, please send a link my way! :D

    Sincerely,
    Larry

    PS: Those FAQs are a great source of information - I’m sure I’ll be referencing them once my project gets underway this summer.
  4. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    This is a basic design tool for 2DOF, as all designs are a culmination of choices and compromises, driven by physics and available resources/skills: https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...e-linear-speed-and-forces-of-your-design.270/

    Build threads are just that, some are more detailed than others but once you understand the basics of the physics and build components/techniques then you can make your own choices around design: https://www.xsimulator.net/2dof-motion-simulator-truck-wiper-motor-playseat/

    If it is a kit you are looking for then I suggest you review the commercial section, though your budget will need to be reconsidered: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/forums/commercial-simulators-and-peripherie.52/
    • Like Like x 1
  5. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    I know this sounds silly, but I am hesitant to create my own design because I don’t have any experience or knowledge about the specifics of motors, construction materials, joint types, etc. I am looking to buy some materials and then follow some instructions to assemble them. Once I have a working sim, I will then start messing around with modifications, or maybe even start designing a whole new system for a second sim. I am afraid if I try designing something on my own, I will end up running into some unforeseen issue.

    This is why I initially was considering building a Joyrider – detailed design specification could be purchased, and enough people have built nearly-identical copies of it, so it well-tested and will be easy to build and get running. But, like you said, a Joyrider is better fit for flight simulation, and I would prefer to run racing games like Mario Kart, TrackMania, etc.

    I believe all decent kits are out of my price range, although the simplicity of setup and step-by-step build instructions would be extremely nice. That said, I don’t mind searching for and buying the materials needed and I am fine doing most of the building myself (although I’ve never welded before). My main concern is trying to design a simulator myself. I’d prefer to do that once I have built my first one following someone else’s plans and understand the basics. Is there a particular build you’d recommend taking a look at? (The one you sent is your last post is really good - my only concerns are the electronics and my inability to weld)

    Thanks!

    Sincerely,
    Larry
  6. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I guess you either trade some time and learn the fundamentals, backed by the huge amount of resources you will find here and the active community who freely give of their time and expertise, or save up for a kit.

    But even a kit will require you to learn about settings and developing motion profiles, with is unique in getting the most out of any specific design. Turn key commercial motion simulators are very expensive.

    By way of encouragement keep in mind that most of the members here started pretty much where you are now and we got to be sim owners by researching projects, asking questions and bouncing ideas off community members before doing something really silly. Most of us still made a few mistakes along the way but learned from them, often going on to refine our sim projects further.

    If you can't weld consider using wood as your build material, or find a friend or community group who can do a little welding for you. Colleges tend to have a diverse range of people and skill sets and you may be surprised who would be interested in helping out.

    The electronics can seem daunting at first, but again that is because it is something that you don't yet understand. There are sections in the FAQs for different control boards, PSUs and wiring, go over them and ask questions before hooking stuff up and flicking any switches.
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  7. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    [QUOTE="noorbeast, post: 131458, member: 10786”] By way of encouragement keep in mind that most of the members here started pretty much where you are now and we got to be sim owners by researching projects, asking questions and bouncing ideas off community members before doing something really silly. Most of us still made a few mistakes along the way but learned from them, often going on to refine our sim projects further. .[/QUOTE]
    That’s encouraging to hear, although I don’t know how many mistakes I can afford cost-wise. I guess my best bet would be to find someone with detailed designs that work well and then base my own design off of that. That’s why I am still contemplating building a Joyrider (it would be cool for certain applications like NoLimits Coaster riding and Super Monkey Ball - and it can built out of thick PVC, a big plus!). However, a seat shaker would be better for racing games and would have a smaller footprint…

    And regardless of which I choose, I will still have to learn how to set up a motor with a JRK and a PC with running the game. There are a lot of resources on this site, and you and other community members will be a big help in finalizing my design. And perhaps I could recruit a friend or two to help assemble some parts.

    So, I think that’s the direction I will go in. This summer, I will purchase the Joyrider PDF for $15, look at the designs and then choose wether to build a Joyrider or seat shaker. I will then research designs and make my own. I’ll tally up the total cost and source all my parts. Along the way, I’ll post to the forum and get some feedback and advice. :D

    From a construction standpoint, what is easier for someone with no prior experience to build: a PVC Joyrider or a wooden seat-shaker? Also, will they be durable if made of wood/PVC?

    Lastly, I constantly see references to Thanos’ Joyrider and I understand that he created a pulley system to control the Joyrider. Did Thanos (or whoever designed it) ever write a guide or post the details of how his system was designed?

    Thank you again for your help!

    Sincerely,
    Larry
  8. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Plans are one thing, powering it is another and may influence your choice of build materials.

    To get a sense of what it takes to make it work have a look at @cgodwin's joyrider styled build: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/2dof-joyrider-flight-race-sim-build.7498/

    And @value1's rig: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/my-joyrider-project-comes-to-a-life.3513/

    There is also @knob2001' Thanos inspired pulley Joyrider: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/step-by-step-approaching-to-thanos-work.1218/

    There are others Joyrider inspired builds if you do a search.
    • Like Like x 2
  9. RandomCoder

    RandomCoder Active Member Gold Contributor

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    I'll start by stating that I'm also new here and currently in the process of designing a sim and learning what I can from the forum.

    It is not for me to sway your opinion, but I would consider a seat mover to be a simpler design.
    In its simplest form it is just a chair with a universal joint at its centre of gravity (COG) and two motors with positional feedback.

    Consider for a moment that the motors and positional feedback, the motor controllers and power supplies are probably fairly similar for either design and so the associated cost of these is similar.
    Therefore what is left is the choice of frame. A joyrider requires a frame with seat that can pivot in two axis on a base. This seems far more complex and costly than a seat mover which in its simplest form could be little more than a desk chair fitted with a universal joint.

    Regarding materials, I see a lot of people are using aluminium extrusion. Now this might be too expensive for your budget, but consider calling into local businesses to see if they have any offcuts, maybe your college has some? The lengths required for a seat mover could quite easily be acquired from offcuts if you know of a business that uses the stuff and are able to sweet talk then into letting you have some. The chair you may already have? A simple desk chair is a fair starting point!
    Also consider that with a seat mover you could quite easily expand the design adding more DOF's but this may be a little more difficulty to do with a joyrider design.

    It's probably pretty obvious by now that I have chosen to design a seat mover! ;)

    Last of all, I would seriously consider building a small model. This will give you a better understanding of what it is that you'll be getting yourself into without investing too much money. There is some electronics required and there's some programming. There's also a lot of tweaking! You should be able to use the electronics in the final design, so its not like you'd be wasting money. I'd probably hold off on buying power supplies though, just use an old PC PSU if intending to use 12V motors in the final design.

    Personally I think that it is possible to build a seat mover within your budget (not so sure about a joyrider but then I've not thoroughly researched them), but doing so in a couple of weekends is probably pretty unrealistic given that you have no previous experience.
    My best advice, don't rush. Plan carefully, build a working model and understand how it interfaces with SimTools then commit to the build.

    I wish you the best of luck with your Sim and hope to hear more from your experiences!
    • Like Like x 1
  10. S.N.

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    noorbeast-

    Thank you for the constant support and links - I have them all saved on my Desktop for reference, and I have been looking through them. I also managed to find a few PVC Joyrider designs, but all of them either use a metal pulley system or an expensive pneumatic system to give it motion. Would it be possible to use only PVC?

    Also, is Thanos still around on these forums? If so, I'd love to hear his input (or others who have built Joyriders following his designs). And yes, racing sims are usually seat movers, but honestly, I would enjoy any simulator, and could spend hours with NoLimits Coasters, Super Monkey Ball, and flight simulators in a Joyrider.

    My main priority is making as few costly design decisions as possible. I am currently thinking of a Joyrider with PVC supports for the motors in a pulley system - I will draw plans when I get the chance.

    As for a seat shaker, it looks like less construction work, and has a smaller footprint, but the base needs to built not to wobble or bend and the rods need to be super strong, likely metal (I have no metal-working experience). I will keep searching the forums for designs and maybe I'll come across a good PVC seat mover design…

    -Larry
  11. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    RandomCoder-

    Thanks for replying! It’s nice to know someone else is in the same place. What are you thinking for your design? What do you plan to make it out of? Do you have welding experience? (I do not, and am looking to use mostly PVC/wood - not due to cost, but do to inexperience)

    That is definitely true, but Joyriders are well-documented and have been replicated/modified many times… It’s a tradeoff, I guess.


    Also a good point, although 2DoF would be fine for my first sim. If I build a second, I anticipate creating a totally new design from scratch and doing everything ‘right.’ :D

    [QUOTE="RandomCoder, post: 131490, member: 24568”]My best advice, don't rush. Plan carefully, build a working model and understand how it interfaces with SimTools then commit to the build.[/QUOTE]
    That is a good idea! I will definitely try to plan/test as much as possible before spending any money on expensive parts.

    Thanks for the help, and if you are on a similar budget/skill level, I’d love to see your designs (and vice-versa).

    Best of luck!

    -Larry
  12. RandomCoder

    RandomCoder Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Thanks @S.N. I'm an engineer by trade, learnt to weld many years ago but doubt that I'd be any good at it now and so planning to steer clear of any welding if at all possible. Nut and bolt will most likely be used for my first sim.
    Also I noticed that you mentioned another users sim, if you wish to raise their attention just place an @ in front of their name and then they will receive a notification and with a little luck may even reply, so if @thanos341 or @thanos94 is out there (sorry not sure which one you actually require) they will now have a notification and if still visiting the forum they may feel like offering some advice. Its useful to know but I should probably try not to abuse it. The forum is very well monitored and spamming is not taken lightly.

    I also forgot to say the most important thing of all... have fun! That is after all what building a sim is all about!! :D
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  13. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    I am glad to hear that. I will certainly be doing the same! What material are you thinking of using?

    If you don't mind, could you post your designs when you finish them. Depending on my budget, I might like to replicate/adapt your ideas (or vice-versa. I will start drawing plans this summer). I have been having trouble finding plans for cheap sims that don't require welding or Arduino know-how (I will be using JRKs).

    Also, thank you for the advice about @ notifications. It's good to know!

    Best of luck with your project!

    Sincerely,
    Larry
  14. RandomCoder

    RandomCoder Active Member Gold Contributor

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    Cheers Larry, I've no design at the moment but plan to document everything and share it with the community.
    I'm currently designing a linear actuator using an e-scooter motor as these motors seem to be easy and cheap to get hold off. I'm not really too restricted by budget, although having a family means that I'll try to be careful things don't get out of hand. My main constraint is space!
    I'm also not really in any rush, just happy checking the forum's new posts each day and still learning to use Sketchup. I plan to follow my own advice and make a small model before I proceed to much further!
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  15. S.N.

    S.N. New Member

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    It sounds like you are taking a smart approach to it all. I wish you best of luck in your project. Feel free to post a link to it here - I'd love to see how it goes! :D
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  16. cgodwin

    cgodwin Active Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, JRK, Joyrider
    I wouldn't let the lack of prior experience worry you - even not being able to weld. I didn't know how to weld either before my joyrider, but I didn't have the budget for aluminum and PVC seemed to have too much flex. I think steel actually ended up cheaper than PVC. I could have bolted everything together, but welding made for a sturdier frame. I used a borrowed $89 welder from Harbor Freight, spent an hour practicing and then started building.

    If I had used Monster Motos and an Arduino, my sim would have been sub $500, not including the computer, monitor, and joystick/wheel.
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