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Logitech shifter vs. DIY force-feedback shifter.

Discussion in 'DIY peripherals' started by iWill, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. iWill

    iWill New Member

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    I've been playing racing sim games for a couple of months now. I have never used a logitech gear shifter. I had built my own H-shifter which I really liked, but found that there was no way I could ensure the clutch was depressed before allowing the gear lever to move. I really want that feature otherwise having a H-shifter on the rig is a bit like an appendix.

    Can someone please tell me: Does the logitech gear shifter prevent gear changes without the clutch?

    If it does not or cannot then I will proceed with my new plans to build a shifter with force feedback.

    i||!/\/\
  2. pipis2015

    pipis2015 over-boost

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    The shifter moves without pressing the clutch pedal.

    There is no shifter to this day that prevents the lever to select a new gear if the clutch pedal is not pressed.
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  3. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    Assetto Corsa and other sims, will give a crunching sound if you don't depress the clutch when changing gears on an enabled car, which is good enough feedback for most of us, but all the power to you if you want to have that translate back to an actual feeling in the gear stick...Good luck.
  4. iWill

    iWill New Member

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    I'm thinking of more than just a "feeling" in the gear stick. I already went down that route, and had a working prototype shifter that COULD vibrate the stick if you tried to shift it without the clutch. But it was a failure, because gear changes take place so fast that by the time the vibration gets up to speed you've changed gears and released the gear knob.

    I'm talking about true haptic feedback where the stick prevents you from changing gears (unless you try really hard) if the clutch is not pressed all the way. It is a long time since I drove a real car with a manual gearbox, but I can remember how bad I was at it, and I remember how hard it was to change gears without the clutch. [in an early model Honda Civic] Unless modern manual gearboxes are different that is the kind of experience I think I should aim for.

    No doubt you are right when you say the sound is good enough feedback for most of us, It must be so, because I have been staggered by the fact that I cannot find any complaints about this lack of realism in the sim racing experience. I'm not an Assetto Corsa fan. In DiRT 3, "changing" gears without the clutch is ignored by the game unless you have it configured to automatically engage the clutch when you move the gear lever. That defeats the purpose of simulating a H-shift gearbox -you might as well use a keyboard. At the moment I'm using a sequential shift lever that I built myself. It works well. Here is a video of me testing it (badly)


    With a little practice, my ranking on the Dirt Rally leaderboard moved from 9th place to 5th. When I tested the aforementioned "vibrating" shifter, my place on the rankings got much worse :) But in my case there is a physical/medical reason for that.

    If that was all there was to it, I'd stick with the sequential shift, but I'm interested in accuracy. Apparently Dirt Rally has an optional feature in which you have to use the gearbox type that is in the REAL car. That is the kind of challenge I want.

    Also, SpinTires only has a manual gearshift, which is reasonable - you're driving trucks! I plan to mod it as far as I can to get a kind of Dakar Rally experience. From what I've seen of Spintires mods you can get close*. To complete the experience I need a manual shifter.

    *The main exception as far as I can see is that mud and sand behave differently, traction-wise and Spintires doesn't do sand. <<-WRONG!

    I have the design all worked out. It might take me a while to put it together but in theory it should work. Some clever programming might be needed to relay the state of the clutch from the main game controller to the H-shifter game controller but I'm confident it can be achieved. One of the really exciting things about the design I am working on is the possibility of re-configuring the gearbox layout and type in software. For example, change it from a 6-speed manual to an 8-speed manual, change the H-layout to accurately match the car you are going to drive, and to switch from H-pattern manual to sequential-shift to automatic gearbox. A quick google image search for gearbox gear layout patterns will show you the kind of variations my design could cope with.

    Or, you could change the control from a gearbox to a handbrake!!
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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  5. pipis2015

    pipis2015 over-boost

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    I ve been long thinking about something like this.

    Purely mechanical. No electric parts.

    It can be achieved but there is a problem.

    The gates should be locked only when entered... meaning that:
    a)you can't select a gear without certain amount of travel of your pedal and
    b) you should be able to exit a gate without the use of clutch (you would just need a little more force, just as in a real car)

    EDIT:
    i have added a top view of a shifter explaining my idea.

    gate blocker.jpg



    in the above picture the shifter has a gear engaged(the clutch pedal is not pressed).
    but with proper force and without use of clutch the shifter can go to neutral(exit the gate).
    the coils will ensure the required stiffness.

    on the other hand if the shifter is in neutral there is no way to enter the gate because it is blocked.
    gate blocker 2.jpg

    so by use of a chord (connected to the clutch pedal) just like the one conected to a real gas pedal we have to find a way to retract the springs and free the gate for the shifter rod to enter.

    gate blocker 3.jpg
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    Last edited: Jan 24, 2016
  6. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    you could use a bowden cable (from bicycle) between pedals and shifter?
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  7. pipis2015

    pipis2015 over-boost

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    yes.

    the bigger problem is that there is not enough space to put this mechanism in every gate

    so it has to be "universal" for forward-from-neutral or backward-from-neutral movements.

    one mechanism for all the odd gates and one for all the even gates.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2016
  8. pipis2015

    pipis2015 over-boost

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    but with the addition of a retractable spring plunger instead

    [​IMG]
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  9. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    on racingfr.com, we had discussions about a plate with holes which could be push by a solenoid in order to block the end of the rod... but not made yet
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  10. iWill

    iWill New Member

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    You don't need the mechanism on every gate. The trick is your gate "lock" moves with the gear lever. See photo.

    FullSizeRender.jpg
    Expand image for detail. This is my current "gate" mechanism sitting over the lever assembly. It's loose, as I just dis-assembled it.

    The "locks" on my assembly are those catches you use to hold cupboard doors shut. The two locks move on a lever side-to-side with the gear lever. So you only need TWO.

    Of course, the cupboard door catches don't stop movement of the lever. I love @pipis2015 's design. All you need is an electrical release, just like a real electrically controlled door lock. This would be a much simpler option than the design I came up with.

    As far as the electrical signal is concerned, you get that from your clutch pedal. If you built your own pedal that will not be a problem.. If it is built in to the pedal set you have don't despair. I have a hunch it would be possible to write a program to monitor the steering/pedal game controller for clutch presses and send a signal to your gearbox controller. I will look into this further.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  11. Barry

    Barry Active Member

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    Here's my idea.

    Circular or square plate with 2 electronic solenoids seated on bottom two corners of the plate and the gear shifter goes through a hole in the middle. Solenoids have a pin each held through the plate into a grid/mesh below. When the pedal is pressed the solenoids suck the pins up allowing the plate to move. When it's released the pin drops into the grid/mesh below stopping the shifter moving.

    Very very simple, and easily made. The more complicated you try to make it the harder it'll be to get it to function correctly.

    If any of you have mechanical experience you'll be familiar with gear shifter neutral position locks for setting up the default settings on gearboxes with cable shifters. Pretty much the same sort of system operated by a solenoid.
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  12. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    yes, a simple way could be an electrical door lock

    - one way OK without current
    - other way, need current to release the latch like @pipis2015 said

    gache-electrique-1.jpg gâche-électrique.jpg
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  13. fortissimo

    fortissimo Member

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  14. Barry

    Barry Active Member

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    Simplify the door lock ever further = just a simple solenoid valve.

    Voltage = pin retracted.
    No voltage = pin drops down in to place.
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  15. kon

    kon New Member

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  16. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

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    It looks like a bowden cable indeed: the clutch pedal pulls a cable which releases a latch in the shifter

    My concerns would be
    the shear force on the latch: does it induce to much friction to prevent a good moving?
    how much the action on the pedal is increased?
    and how quick is the return to initial position of the lock?

    1459266_679374912095580_916937151_n.jpg

    1463099_679374908762247_64934741_n.jpg

    frexsimsynchro_1024.jpg

    Here is the shematics
    chart600.JPG
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  17. Barry

    Barry Active Member

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  18. pipis2015

    pipis2015 over-boost

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    The solenoid valve is a good (clean) solution but not perfect.

    It has two states, open and closed.


    IMHO...
    A cable managed plunger (while less tidy) resembles the true haptic feedback of the real gear shifter.

    As always it's just a matter of personal prefference, time and money.

    I am planing to build a sequential shifter with a mechanical-springloaded (clutch-cable-controled) plunger.

    Will post progress and feedback as soon as I start the project.
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  19. kon

    kon New Member

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    A tora malista, auto einai endiaferon. Much luck with your try please inform us with a link or something when you start the build. Good luck.
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