1. For downloading SimTools plugins you need a Download Package. Get it with virtual coins that you receive for forum activity or Buy Download Package - We have a zero Spam tolerance so read our forum rules first.

    Buy Download Package Now!
  2. Do not try to cheat our system and do not post an unnecessary amount of useless posts only to earn credits here. We have a zero spam tolerance policy and this will cause a ban of your user account. Otherwise we wish you a pleasant stay here! Read the forum rules
  3. We have a few rules which you need to read and accept before posting anything here! Following these rules will keep the forum clean and your stay pleasant here. Do not following these rules will lead to permanent exclusion from this website: Read the forum rules.

Showroom JIFFY G-SEAT and G-SKULL

Discussion in 'Commercial Simulators and Peripherie' started by BlazinH, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    Hi all. As some of you may know I've been developing a G-seat and it is now completed and successfully tested. The Jiffy G-seat seat has many unique features not found with other G-seats. The first is that it was specifically designed for use with and on motion simulators so it’s very lightweight. Furthermore it works in conjunction with your existing racing seat and does absolutely no damage to it what so ever. (At least it will with most seats, even chairs, sofas, etc.) And I named it Jiffy G-seat because you can put in on or take it off your seat in a Jiffy.



    The Velcro on my seat is from past experiments and not required or being used in the video

    JIFFY G-SEAT ™

    The Jiffy G-seat provides six pressure zones and simulates sway and surge forces. It also has optional heave if desired but since its intended to be used with a motion simulator it won't be something that most will need or want. Heave adds quite of bit of expense too and with G-seat type heave you don't receive that much in return imo, especially for racing. However for flight it will provide somewhat immersive extended heave cues that motion simulators alone are mostly incapable of.

    If you have been reading SeatTimes Sims thread lately you saw he recently commented, "So I have done some more testing and I like way the sway rails are working and their direct effect with the side bolsters (now have two more fitted around my ribs), they have a much better 'natural' pressure feel then just the paddles." Well the Jiffy G-seat does the same except it applies pressure to your ribs directly without a parasitic setup. This allows a person to reverse the effect if they wish using included software, which is supplied data by Simtools. So you can either simulate the effect of your body weight pushing into the seat like other g-seats do or you can reverse it and get the effect of inertia moving your body sideways so you can work your muscles to counter the force. There are two sway zones on the bottom also and can be reversed as well because when using "Inertia mode" I still like it to function like a standard g-seat. Bottom and top sway is also configurable to some extent so you can apply pressure on your ribs or thighs where it feels best to you. Whichever way you set it up is satisfying though so it’s really a matter of preference.

    Acceleration surge on the Jiffy G-seat is provided in the same manner as it’s done on a GS-4 or GS-5. However I decided on a unique approach for deceleration surge (braking) and use pressure applied directly on the chest instead. It simulates the feeling of your body weight being compressed into a harness. Although an actual harness is not necessary you can still use one if you want. I decided on this approach with the assumption that if a simulation provides somewhat strong decel/braking forces that you would be wearing a harness in real life too.



    The optional heave base works more or less like a GS-4 or GS-5 also and is driven directly by a single motor. Although this option provides heave only, seat base sway is already provided and can be used along with it.

    Also there are mounts for two small Dayton transducers where your back rests against the back of the G-seat as shown in the video above and photo below. (Transducers, etc., not included)

    The power unit is about the size of two window box type fans put front to back but since its not mounted on the motion rig itself its of no consequence since the actual weight added to the motion simulator is only about 10lbs (without the heave seat base). Its also relatively quite in operation but you can judge for yourself from the video above.

    JIFFY-STATIC-NEW-FILTER-30.jpg

    JIFFY G-SKULL ™

    What you haven't heard much about yet is a G system for the head I've been developing also. That's because it was more of an afterthought after I completed my G-seat but as many great things have come about from afterthoughts or by accident G-skull is no exception. G-skull can either be an add-on to the Jiffy G-seat or it can be used individually. But since its designed to work with the Jiffy G-seat and attach to some of its components, purchase for individual use will cost a bit more since those particular components will be needed also. Note that G-skull cannot be used in conjunction with a G-seat other than the Jiffy G-seat unless you come up your own method of mounting it.

    G-skull provides a second layer of g-force simulation and takes things to a whole new level. Frankly, most other g-force simulation methods feel timid in comparison. Just like the Jiffy G-seat, G-skull provides simulation of surge and sway forces. However they are provided using torque based motor drivers vs. position based motor drivers. So basically if you don't attempt to counter the forces with your neck muscles it will pull your head until limits are reached. Head mobility is restricted a little bit but you can still look up and down and right and left to about 60-70 degrees in every direction. You can however move your head forwards, backwards, left and right normally until limits are reached.



    Most of the noise in the video is coming from the power supply’s fan ramping up when the power surges. It’s setting behind my seat in the corner though which is projecting the sound into my camera’s microphone making it sound louder than usual.

    USING THEM TOGETHER

    When you combine a Jiffy G-seat and G-skull, what you now can get for example is acceleration where the G-seat applies pressure on your back while at the same time your head is being moved backwards by G-skull. Or pressure is applied on your chest as your head is moved forwards. Or another example is you can get right turn sway where G-skull moves your head to the left while you can choose the G-seat to apply pressure to either the left or the right ribs depending on your preference. G-skull also simulates gear shifts likely like you've never felt before due to very low latency compared to a motion simulator. G-skull adds about 20lbs. more to your simulator though but take my word for it, it’s worth every pound.

    VIRTUAL REALITY

    And now to answer the question I know you've all been asking, "But will it work with VR?" Well the exciting answer is yes, at minimum with some WMR ones. G-skull has been developed around a Samsung Odyssey Plus headset. Therefore it should work with other WMR headsets also where the headset design and head strap is similar (wearing a helmet is not required). It may work with headsets other than WMR also that are designed similar to the Odyssey plus but if you can't set "seated mode" like in WMR they may not perform as well. There is one consequence though and that is the HMD's built in headphones will no longer fit up tight against your ears. But with the Odyssey Plus at least, you can move them out of the way enough in order to use ear buds instead unencumbered.

    It was a challenge designing a head strap system that could be used in conjunction with an HMD, that was somewhat comfortable, but could still take the stress of torque forces on it without deforming to the point where its constantly pulling the HMD out of position and the "sweet spot". I still have to readjust mine every once in a while. It goes without saying I suppose that the bigger the sweet spot your HMD has the better. However I'm only using the HMD's supplied head strap atm to keep it in place. But pushing it with my hand just a little tighter to my face eliminates any shifting so an additional user added strap on the HMD might be the ticket.

    SOFTWARE

    Included software allows you to reverse every force by clicking a check box and adjust intensities with individual sliders without need to go into Simtools to change axis assignments or adjust tuning numbers. So you never have to stop a game to make changes. You can also set COM ports with three clicks of the mouse for each device, monitor that COMs are connected each time the software starts, and monitor when data becomes available for each device so you know that everything is working properly ahead of time. It shows a graphical representation of the telemetry being received from Simtools for each DOF and speed as well.

    WIND

    There is a wind option also. The software has a slider for wind that allows you to set the maximum speed of a vehicle so the fan tops out when the vehicle speed does, or at whatever speed you choose. The fan can also be run and adjusted manually when no data is being received in order to help keep you comfortable on warm days between races, etc. And if you already have a fan setup of your own then you can use that too. The fan option comes with G-skull so if you purchase one then you can also control your own fan. However you need your own fan power supply and motor controller as well (Sabertooth and IBT-2 support).

    INTEREST

    I made the Jiffy G-seat and G-skull for my own use and enjoyment. However I've always had the attitude that if I can satisfy myself then I believe others will be satisfied also. Therefore I'm now more carefully mulling over offering this to the public. A startup is not an easy thing to accomplish however and it takes a lot of time and effort. Therefore I would like to ask for your help with this by sharing your opinions in order for me to make a more educated decision. I have determined what I believe I can sell them for in USD depending on volume. The Jiffy G-seat should be in the neighborhood of $2500 and Jiffy G-skull $1500. If you want to add heave to the G-seat, $700. If you want Jiffy G-skull only then add another $200 to cover the Jiffy G-seat parts that are necessary. Fan module price yet to be determined. But these are my expected retail prices and I will be offering reduced prices on my first production run units. The amount of reductions depends on how much interest there is. The more units I can manufacture on the first run the less I can sell them for.

    CROWD FUNDING

    Depending on response and if I decide to move forward then I'm contemplating doing my own type of Kickstarter crowd funding. Considering the still small market segment for motion simulators, I don't really believe I would get many if any customers from Kickstarter that I don't send there myself by posting here and on other sim racing and flight websites and by forum members that pass the word. The difference though is I will be taking on most of the risk since I will not be preapproving payments. Again, depending on response, my plan will be to launch a website where you can then go sign up to purchase but without making payment yet. Once I get enough commitments to move forward I will then determine how much I can reduce prices and proceed to contact everyone that has signed up to make sure they are still committed. If I find that enough people are still on-board then I will start accepting payments on my PayPal business account. As units are completed they will be sent out in the order payments are received. However the first to sign the commitment list will get the first opportunities to make payment. PayPal then provides buyer protection for up to 180 days from purchase therefore your risk is practically eliminated. I will likely state in my terms however that you will allow me up to 19 weeks to complete the order before you will dispute the charge. This protects me somewhat, allows for up to two weeks shipping time, and still gives you almost one full month to contact PayPal if necessary. Therefore I will obviously be making every diligent effort to ship all units out in 19 weeks or less but I expect the latter (less) for the most part.


    So do you have any comments or questions? All are welcome even criticisms since you might help me save a lot of time and money.
    • Like Like x 5
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. Ads Master

    Ads Master

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
  3. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,039
    Location:
    Marseille - FRANCE
    Balance:
    18,428Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,935 / 16 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    whoa! nice project : a Gdevice for the body and a Gdevice for the head!

    >So do you have any comments or questions?

    what I like:
    - torque driven and not position driven, that's mandatory IMO
    - Gskull is a good brand name :cool:
    - it preserves the racing seat
    - small footprint
    - as a rally man, I like heave effect!
    - it's nice to be able to easily test effect or conter-effect for the user experience
    - pneutmatic gives force and transducers give reactivity: good combo

    what I fear:
    - is the Gskull safe for my neck?
    - I have owned the Geko gSeat for a while and I didn't like the feeling to be strapped horizontally, it blocks my breathing. Racing harness is vertical and it is OK for me.
    - if heave effect is mechanical and not pneumatique, is it strong enough for any driver or over time?
    - pneumatic tubes are too small and this will induce loss of reactivity and efficiency

    remarks:
    - Can you wear a harness over your jiffy ? because if the Gseat is on the mobile plateform, you need the harness to feel the plateform movements.
    - you're in competition against GS5 which is 3000$ (2500$ on black friday) but the aim is different

    Personnaly, I'm on a similar project ;) so I won't suscribe but I wish you luck! that's great
    • Like Like x 2
  4. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    Thanks for the comments and questions @RacingMat.

    Jiffy G-seats design purpose was so it can be used with a motion simulator without bogging it down by excessive weight. So while I have a heave option, I'm expecting most people will use motion simulators to provide heave. Even a simple 2 dof, although it can't actually heave, can provide better road perception than g-seat heave imo. However for extended heave it works reasonably well.
    Yes G-skull is safe for your neck unless its a pencil :p. In all seriousness of course that was a main concern I had to account for. But from what I've heard about the Geko gSeat, G-skull works similarly. So the idea is to use your muscles as immediately as possible to counter its movement. So it doesn't need a huge range of movement before hitting stops so your head can only go so far. However another disclaimer is needed for those with an already sore neck, a neck injury, and other like issues, etc. Also in my videos I am using my software for manual control to show capabilities but in reality its motion is not as violent as it looks when used with normal telemetry.
    Your breathing should not be constricted by the straps because they don't directly wrap directly around your body, they are being supported by a structure that does. However the tighter the straps are that holds back the braking bladders the stronger the perception. I wouldn't say its extremely comfortable however but then neither is it when strapped into a race car, etc.
    It actually requires more power to drive pneumatics then doing it mechanically when done with speed and I won't go as far as saying it is. There are just to many variables to say so.

    One may think so but this is actually not the case due to compressability of certain fluids known as gases. This may be true when using liquids but their higher density and weight create their own issues.

    I'm not completely following you but yes you can. If you are also using G-skull however the harness openings in a racing chair may be encumbered somewhat and the shoulder belts may not stay completely flat as they go through.

    Like you said I am but I'm not. I'm not attempting to make a G-seat that's completely independent but one that still relies on minimal motion for initial acceleration cueing. Then the Jiffy G-seat fills the gap and takes care of extended cueing.


    In all honestly though, the immersion G-skull provides makes everything else feel weak. If I could only have one and had to make a choice between motion, a g-seat, and G-skull, I would choose G-skull. But put a little heave, surge and sway motion along with G-skull though and it simply feels amazing.

    And thanks for your honesty and good luck with your project. :cheers
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  5. Philip K

    Philip K New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Balance:
    71Coins
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    You seem to have well thought out what you want to achieve from the seat and certainly it offers a different perspective on some fronts, the g skull I could imagine with vr would certainly add immersion.

    My only comment is not on the seat base, but the chest panel, I’m not sure personally I would want to strap that on, not because it wouldn’t work or anything, it’s more an aesthetics thing.

    If it could be worked into normal race harnesses some way so that it would feel more natural getting yourself ready to race that would certain make it more visually appealing!

    I know that prob sounds picky, but people, shallow ones like myself lol, do like items to look the part, especially when parting with decent amounts of money, it’s that final polish that can make all the difference.

    Anyway, loving it, keep up the great work and keep us updated on how you progress!
  6. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    I appreciate your comment. Pressure applied directly on the chest with a back plate allows the highest pressures to be transferred. I experimented using a harness with bladder pockets early on and pressure transfer was minimal and unsatisfying. But there are bladders on each side of the chest which can be adjusted to apply pressure where harness straps would be.

    However, if people would like a harness tensioner instead then it would be easy to make that an option.
  7. Philip K

    Philip K New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Balance:
    71Coins
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    I was thinking about the front plate and was wondering if it could be implemented as a vest? Not to change functionality, but a vest that players would wear over the shoulders would possibly stay in position better? You could then clip the vest into the mechanism in some fashion? It could also open up for s a safety release in the clip should there ever be a pressure spike or failure of some sort.

    just some thoughts
  8. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,039
    Location:
    Marseille - FRANCE
    Balance:
    18,428Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,935 / 16 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
  9. Philip K

    Philip K New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Balance:
    71Coins
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    I was more just thinking of the vest to house the chest plate, just if it made it more user friendly / more like apparel rather than just strapping a metal plate to yourself.

    Same function as before just a different looking.
  10. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,039
    Location:
    Marseille - FRANCE
    Balance:
    18,428Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,935 / 16 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    @BlazinH : do you intend to post more detail about your Gskull? how it is linked to the head? is it adjustable according to our own body shape?
  11. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    When you think it through further it’s easiest to use it the way it’s already implemented. Just slide the ½ inch mdf plate between the straps, align the straps with the notches in the plate, and it locks into place when you tighten the straps. You adjust the tightness of the straps depending on how intense you want the highest pressure to be. To remove just loosen the straps and slide it out.
  12. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    I plan on posting some game action videos when possible to show G-skull working with telemetry.

    It attaches to your head via a head strap system that consist of both soft and hard elements. The soft element adjusts to fit your head snugly. The hard element is ridged and only allows minor adjustments to your head. Therefore the hard element that's included will depend on the width of your head.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    Drivers view using a G-skull g-force head system only. I used a standard monitor for this video but its also compatible with some VR headsets.


    Btw, if you listen closely to the audio it becomes clear why SeatTime named his g-systems grunt.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
  14. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,039
    Location:
    Marseille - FRANCE
    Balance:
    18,428Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,935 / 16 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    looks like in reality
    at start, we feel our head going back, our look going upward. We can see that in your video :thumbs

    We are still curious about the strap system.

    I've found an old picture of a head-simulator (can't find the video...): it was quite stylish!
    236688DIYSimhead.png
  15. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    And moving downwards some when braking. But sway is hard to see because its easy to anticipate when g-forces will begin and from which side. Therefore you can react with your neck muscles before or at the same time forces kick in. You can see sway working at the end of the video though where I crash into the wall. Again I'm only using G-skull and nothing else in that video.

    I don't know exactly what you are curious about. But when not using a monitor what more I can add is it goes underneath a HMD and tightens around your head at the lower back of your skull. From the photos of different HMDs it looks like it should work with many of them since they usually strap to the back of the head higher up and directly behind the display panels. But Vive and other HMDs that have a strap that goes over the top of the head too won't work. Also those with built-in headphones may not work unless you can move them back and away from your ears or remove them completely.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  16. Chipless

    Chipless New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2019
    Messages:
    5
    Balance:
    56Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Is there any possible way that the G-Skull cap could be modified to work with HMDs that have an over-the-head strap? Currently, the Valve Index is one of the most, if not the most, desirable HMDs, and it uses a front-to-back, over-the-head strap running across the center of the skull. I realize that a better HMD could be released without a strap that runs over the top of the head, but it doesn't seem all that uncommon for the higher-end HMDs at the moment.
  17. Chipless

    Chipless New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2019
    Messages:
    5
    Balance:
    56Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    To clarify, if it was between using a GSeat+Skull+Odyssey Plus combo, or a HP Reverb/Valve Index without the GSeat+Skull, it would be an easy decision to go with the former. I am just wondering if there is any conceivable way to make the G-Skull work with a wider variety of HMDs in order to make the G-Skull more "future proof". Regardless, thanks for sharing this with us, and I hope I can get my hands on both at some point!
  18. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    Good question @Chipless. As I stated in my write-up G-skull was something I decided to try after finishing development of the Jiffy G-seat. Like many other motion sim builders/users I'm satisfied with what I have but only for a short time then I want more. So I threw something together from a few ideas I had so I could test them out and it just so happened with a few modifications G-skull works brilliantly.

    I was excited to announce the Jiffy G-seat though since it was ready and decided to share G-skull too although I'm still working on improvements. Now that I've had some additional time to work on G-skull further and take more things into consideration I was able to come up with a modification so yes it can now be used with over-the-head strapped HMDs as well :).

    :cheers
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. RacingMat

    RacingMat Well-Known Member Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,039
    Location:
    Marseille - FRANCE
    Balance:
    18,428Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,935 / 16 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino
    please, more vids! :popcorn
  20. Philip K

    Philip K New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Balance:
    71Coins
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    hi, just wondering how you are progressing. I will be certainly following keenly
  21. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,092
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    15,144Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,765 / 30 / -1
    Hi @Philip K. I've decided to further develop G-skull and have been working on that the last few weeks. However recent holidays and my 84 year old father falling and breaking his hip has reduced my available time. ATM I've had to switch to developing a lift for my father that will lift him over a few stairs so he can get in and out of his home. Right now he's kind of stuck at a rehab facility until he can gain more strength to climb the stairs or he has another way so I've had to make that a priority.

    Just keep looking here though as I will be posting updates as they are available.

    May I inquire as to what you are most interested in; Jiffy G-seat, G-skull, or both? I would like to hear from the rest of you that have interest also.

    I'm personally most excited about G-skull. Considering your head is one of the most sensitive parts of your body, g-forces applied to it and your neck feels much stronger than forces applied to other parts of your body. However its definitely a plus when they are also applied to the torso at the same time.
    • Like Like x 2