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Is Roll and Yaw important for a gentle simulator?

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Building Q&A / FAQ' started by cadcoke5, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. cadcoke5

    cadcoke5 Joe D

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    1st an introduction; I am part of a group that is working to establish a Creation museum in the Eastern Pennsylvania area. One thing we are considering is to include a VR type environment, which may be as basic as a projection onto a dome for 3 or 4 people to view while standing. However, I am evaluating if we might add a motion simulator. We would not be using head mounted displays.

    In contrast to most simulators on this forum, which are geared towards games, ours would be a very gentle ride. Most commercial ones seems to be geared towards gaming as well. For us, Perhaps a golf-cart on a smooth surface is a good analogy for our own goal.

    We have people with the engineering and building abilities involved. So, we could build our own if we wanted to. So, I am doing a little basic research to start the process.

    I am wondering what forces are the most important in our situation, with its gentle accelerations. My goal is a max of around 3 Ft/S^2 . And less may also be acceptable. I am focusing on the low-hanging fruit.

    I think that forward acceleration is the most important for us. That is obviously accomplished with pitch motion.

    The other potential forces are from turning. You feel a pull to the side, and your inner ear can detect the rotation. But, I suspect these are not as important as the forces from forward acceleration. Am I correct?

    Roll is needed to provide the side forces, and then yaw is needed to activate the inner ear. When you are designing for up to 4 passengers, I think that these additional forces will quire a lot more effort, so that is why I would ideally like to omit them if possible. And while vertical forces from climbing or dropping in an airplane (heave), I suspect that this is never done in most simulators, because it really takes an elevator to do realistically.

    One final force is vibration from the virtual motor and wheels going over terrain. But, I suspect this is an easy thing to add.

    Perhaps it is best for me to pose my question as a survey. I would appreciate it if you can give your answer as a number. Also, comment if you are commenting from experience on an actual simulator. I will provide a few different scenarios, including ones I don't plan on using, so that this serve would serve the greater community.

    Sorry if this appears and then gets edited a lot . It seems you cannot preview a survey. It turns out the survey function can't do it the way I want. So just reply with an inline quote. I will summarize the results if a lot of people reply. Feel free to just comment as well.

    Rank 0 (blank, least) to 4 (most important).

    GAME TYPE SIMULATORS;
    For a Race Car Simulator;
    Pitch (Forward Accel) -
    Roll (Side forces from turning) -
    Yaw (Turning sensation in inner ear) -
    Vibration (from motor and road) -

    For a Fighter Jet Simulator;
    Pitch (Forward Accel) -
    Roll (Side forces from turning) -
    Yaw (Turning sensation in inner ear) -
    Vibration (from motor and road) -
    Heave (Up/Down) -

    MUSEUM SIMULATOR;
    For a gentle Golf-Cart type Simulator;
    Pitch (Forward Accel) -
    Roll (Side forces from turning) -
    Yaw (Turning sensation in inner ear) -
    Vibration (from motor and road) -

    For a gentle Flying Simulator;
    Pitch (Forward Accel) -
    Roll (Side forces from turning) -
    Yaw (Turning sensation in inner ear) -
    Vibration (from motor and road) -
    Heave (Up/Down) -

    Thanks for any comments.

    -Joe
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  2. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    While your assessment is correct we do it all the time by using motion cues instead. Good luck with your project.
  3. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    My five cents worth, fast, well tracked motion is always a good thing for a simulator. Get this wrong and all you will have is lots of patrons looking for sick bags....
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't think the survey or options are helpful, as evaluating a recommendation also requires understanding the context of why it is being made.

    You have touched on perhaps the simplest approach, which can also be used with motion but can also be quite effective stand alone, and that is to use transducers. I don't think you fully appreciate how effective transducers can be, see my recent comments and example on another thread:

    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/lotus-49-cockpit-rig.13053/reply?quote=172590

    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/lotus-49-cockpit-rig.13053/#post-172637

    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/lotus-49-cockpit-rig.13053/#post-172642

    While I get you don't want or need anything wild in terms of the experience, there is a good deal of difference between wallowy amusement rides and the speed capability of actual motion simulation: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/speed-needed-for-good-motion.218/

    Finally, even with a basic 2DOF you can simulate multiple axis, they are all important but I am listing these in the priority order I tune them, and you will note the first is one you have not considered: sway, surge, heave, roll pitch

    You can also use things like motion driven harness tensioning to better simulate sustained G's, along with a G-Seat: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/gseat.20/category
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  5. AntiZ

    AntiZ New Member

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    Hi!
    This reply is with only smal amout of experience of moving simulators, but alot of experience of simulators (and real cars :) )
    Agree with @SeatTime, well tracked (motion/visual) are very important for tricking the brain.

    In a simulatior (driving simulator with a screen) you need to trick the brain to "feel" motion, this can actually be done only by the visual system.
    For me that work with a real cockpit with the throttle and stick, indicators and all the buttons, the starting feel is great, you are in an aircraft.
    Then add a screen that is 180 degree, ~3 meter tall and ~6 meter in diameter your visual perception will only see what you would have seen in the real aircraft.
    When you take off, and rotate, roll and fly and do whatever, your brain will slowly trick you into "feel" motion. But, if anything that don't belong to the simulation moves in your visual area the trick drops, and you need to start all over.
    With som motion cueing, that meens give a little "headstart" with the motion feeling, helps alot to shorten the time for the brain to accept that you are flying.

    For my home project, a motion racing simulator I will first start with pitch and roll. Eventually heave. Why? Ptich, not for the acceleration, but for braking, there are a hard time to get a good feeling for how hard you brake only by visual. Take your car out, go 45 MPH and brake very faint, notice when your body will continue, but your pants will strech on the legs, brake harder and your upper body will leave chair and hang in the safety belt. This will the pitch handle.
    For forward acceleration... Maybe it is important, and the pitch will do well, but for a racing simulator I think it is more important to know how hard you brake. Or am I wrong?

    In a corner, you will feel a pressur on thigh and side of you back/shoulder. That will work fine with roll. Can be done with haptic transducers in the chair as well, but with four in a wagon... Maybe roll is easier.

    I think heave is important for rally, or to simulator turbulence in an aircraft. Not in a slow moving car.

    The yaw for tricking inner ear, in a merry go round maybe, but in a "golf car" simulator? :think

    For the other degree of freedom, I can not give you so much help. :(
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. cadcoke5

    cadcoke5 Joe D

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    Thank you all for the replies. AntiZ, I can see how pitch for braking simulation on a race car is very important. You adjust braking based very much upon how it feels, rather than how much the pedal moves.

    I imagine Roll for the forces caused by turning is a similar need. While the amount that the steering wheel turns is important, your goal is often to avoid skidding, which is a product of both speed and rate of turn. So, the side forces are an important part of sensing that.

    The concept I am working on is likely at least 6 months away before we were to make any decisions. But, I imagine a simple swing, a basic projector, plus a couple of volunteer to serve as "actuators" would permit a very cheap test of the concept. Though, you did mention that there has to be a close correlation of the motion with the video. That may take some trial and error.

    I did get to experience an "elevator ride" that used only a head mounted display and motion tracking. I was quite surprised at how much of the feel for going up was portrayed by getting to see through a crack that was shown in the elevator doors. Then, when the doors opened, to reveal a plank that went out to overhang from the building, it really felt real.

    I think this elevator simulation is very much helped by the fact that you feel the ground as you stand and walk. If you take a step forward, you feel all the exact forces you would expect.. The only missing simulated forces were that of heave, as the elevator started up and then stopped. So, in that specific type of simulated experience, the other simulated forces aren't of any use. Heave would help a little, and think the only thing that could have been added to make it more real, is to have a fan that turned on when they opened the elevator doors, so you can feel that you are outside. But, as it was, it was quite extraordinarily real. However, this situation is a very specific situation that works without needing any actuators, and it would not work for most motion oriented situations.

    -Joe