1. For downloading SimTools plugins you need a Download Package. Get it with virtual coins that you receive for forum activity or Buy Download Package - We have a zero Spam tolerance so read our forum rules first.

    Buy Download Package Now!
  2. Do not try to cheat our system and do not post an unnecessary amount of useless posts only to earn credits here. We have a zero spam tolerance policy and this will cause a ban of your user account. Otherwise we wish you a pleasant stay here! Read the forum rules
  3. We have a few rules which you need to read and accept before posting anything here! Following these rules will keep the forum clean and your stay pleasant here. Do not following these rules will lead to permanent exclusion from this website: Read the forum rules.

Question Experiences with professional flight simulators (level D)

Discussion in 'Commercial Simulators and Peripherie' started by apointner, Aug 26, 2019.

  1. apointner

    apointner Siddhartha

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    N 48° 9'0.88" E 12° 5'45.84"
    Balance:
    452Coins
    Ratings:
    +23 / 3 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    Thanks to a RL Pilot i had a 2h flight at EDDM in a A-320 Level-D Simulator!
    If anyone has also exp. with prof. flight simulators, i would be thankful to share them,
    to develope better DIY motion sim concepts!

    Ok let´s start:
    We did...let´s say some "uncommon" maneuvers in this 6DOF Hexapod :-D
    But at first i was super flashed entering the Simulator, because everthing is just
    like the real A-320 Pit! Even the seat fur!

    The display is astonishing: It is not a monitor system but a 180° mirror system.
    Although the textures are muddy and everything is a bit blurred,
    the scenery looks very realistic. Especially the viewing angle is much more "real"
    - difficult to describe.
    Just once at the break from the downwind I noticed the optical borders of the system.
    Night flying is especially brilliant thanks to the contrast.

    We trashed preflight and startups checks - this was just about one thing: flying!
    Then the big, ol scary question popps up: Is my 360° motion concept totaly wrong?
    Will this High-Tech Full-Motion Sim blasting my Scrapmonster just away?

    Let´s find out:
    On Centerline, pushed the Thrustlevers to TOGA:

    Damn...Acceleration feels so close to real, even constant.
    The needed pitch level to simulate (max 14°) is not noticeable!
    But then V1 and rotate:
    Hmm...heave is missing. Near to nothing positive Gs. Not even OnSet Cueing. Why??

    Time for some rudderwork:
    Sway feels very realistic! No matter if levelflight or bank. Too bad that sway is
    not simulated when taxing.

    Ok, now basics: rolling.
    Great OnSet Cueing when applying big inputs! But constant rollforces are only feelable up to 30° bank (system runs out of travelway?).
    While performing a wingover it´s some Onset and then nothing -
    but this should be realistic, i guess.
    Unfortunately even light wing rocks causing no movement/accelerations in the roll axis!
    So only the first roll input is simulated, then the system needs a certain time to simulate
    the next input. Same issue with pitch.
    Too bad, because this is very important for a realistic flight feeling, isn´t?

    Buffets/Stalls:
    Brilliant simulated. The shaking, stutter and movements works very accurately and without any delay.
    However no heave OnSet or Movement also, even with zero G.

    Crash Dive / Climb Out:
    Hardly or not at all noticeable. Also no OnSet Cueing. It was probably deliberately omitted
    in order not to produce false Gs. According to the instructor, most Level D simulators behave like this.

    Touchdown:
    One of a kind...Deceleration / breaks feels so real (same like T/O)
    But at touchdown the wheel bump seems to be scripted (always the same).

    Ambience/sound:
    Everything as in real, beautifully staged. Engine noises are great.
    But wind noises are hardly perceptible for me.
    Vibrations by engines at the TOGA are also missing.

    Flight physics:
    I can't judge...but certainly above any doubt.

    My conclusion:
    Super real haptics, great ambience, top of the pop for Procedures Training.
    That is the meaning of this thing.
    But to simulate emergencies, aerobatics or military - sorry nope.
    Imho because this simulator use to less heave travel and provides only some roll/pitch accelerations.

    May someone has exp. with Level D Simulators providing this things? That could be a gamechanger.

    But in this configuration there is zero adrenaline even during extreme maneuvers like strong crosswind APP, stalls, wingover, etc.
    And even though the ambience is so great, there is no fluffy cloud no.7 feeling through soft altitude/attitude changes.
    Only App/Dep/Touchdown feels like real.
    Except this few moments, using a solo VR HMD (without motion simulation) would may generate more (realistic?)
    flight feeling to some persons because of the 3D visual perception!

    However this flight was a super nice experience! Thanks to all who made this possible!
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  2. lromaniuk

    lromaniuk bny

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Occupation:
    Software Programmer
    Location:
    Poland
    Balance:
    219Coins
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0
    Performance of that sim is mostly muted because of purpose of this kind of simulator. It is used to train pilots to know particular machine, its avionics, procedures etc. Motion is just an addition to make it more realistic but in any way motion is used to mimic plane movement in 100 percent. First of all because of mechanical limitations - it is impossible to accurately simulate all of the forces and details. Second - even if the platform is capable of more dynamic movements it's just cost ineffective for the training company as all of those parts on the platform wear over time. So to keep maintance periods longer its performance is just tuned to be good enough for the purpose. Today I've foun this interesting video.



    Any kind of sim won't be capable of reproducing such accelerations and details (well maybe some NASA kind of thing). As for your 360 sim you will miss all of the shakey cues from your motion as the sim is only capable to turn araound a certain point - wich is good for simulating angular accelerations and low freuency linears but, to simulate linear accelerations in case of 360 sim, motion cueing must utilize tilt coordination wich comes with its own shortcomings mostly due to prevent false cues from angular accelerations a rate of rotations is usually very limited.
  3. apointner

    apointner Siddhartha

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    N 48° 9'0.88" E 12° 5'45.84"
    Balance:
    452Coins
    Ratings:
    +23 / 3 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    Hm, i did not think about wearing and maintenance, true thing.
    And like you said, civil sims don´t need more for the purpose of procedure training.
    Another explanation, which also surprised me very much, is the that Level D simulators are not used to train emergencies!
    The pilots are not even allowed to train emergency watering or extreme roll angles.
    An LH pilot told me that he trains emergencies privately (e.g. with X-Plane or prepared 3D)...but not all pilots do that.
    And to get back to the topic: If you want to train emergencies, you have to have a motion simulation that is capable of generating all attitudes and quiet some G-forces.
    (even wrong generated G-forces are acceptable to achieve this). This is the only way to reveal human errors such as confusion, panic, overload and overreacting.

    Just a thought: Build a belt tensioner system into a Level D simulator to simulate positive Gs. I bet the pilots suddenly act differently in unusual situations.

    Fortunately very few accidents happen in the flight area, but I wonder if some accidents could not have been prevented with such an emergency training.
  4. hexpod

    hexpod http://heXpod.xyz

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Messages:
    658
    Location:
    berlin
    Balance:
    4,321Coins
    Ratings:
    +191 / 2 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, 6DOF
    To bad you didn’t record a phyphox experience to compare the level D pro hexapod with the reality.

    Please do so if in the future you have a chance to get in again.

    https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/6-dof-blackbox-real-life-data-recorder.13646/
  5. apointner

    apointner Siddhartha

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    N 48° 9'0.88" E 12° 5'45.84"
    Balance:
    452Coins
    Ratings:
    +23 / 3 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    We did use Acceleration and a Angular Measurement App, but we were not able to record the hole thing. However max. Pitchangle was 16° (Take off / Approach on the Breaks). Max. Bankangle also 16°. Max. heave was 0.2m/sec.
    We were not allowed to make a movie from outside view. Good to know that this App is able to track everything.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019