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Converting RnR with SCN actuators: Feasible?

Discussion in 'DIY Motion Simulator Projects' started by FlyingColander, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    I have an old RnR motion chair which has been extensively modded. I am considering up grading with SCN actuators.

    Is this realistic? Has anyone tried bolting on SCNs to a Rock N Ride?

    This is the rig. (Some of you may recognize Renoboss' fine metalwork.)

    RnR00.JPG

    bvillersjr commented that much depends on the leverage the actuators can get from their mounting positions. Currently, the chair uses two pneumatic cylinders for pitch and one for roll. The chair balances fairly well despite the extra weight as much of the burden is borne by the central pillar. When seated, I balance out the nose weight of monitor, instrument panels, etc. Balance might be further improved if trimmed with tail weights.

    Given a reasonably well balanced chair, how strong does the actuator need to be? bvillersjr suggested a SNC6 model pushing 60kgf and moving at 100mm/sec. I am an IL-2 flyer not a driver. Do you think the movement will be satisfactory for fliers?

    I am also concerned about the SCN actuators physically matching the shape of the old SMC pneumos. They would have to be mounted on the same Clevis and U-bolt posts as the SMCs. The model number for the old pistons is CP95SDB-50-270 GX DE. They have a 50mm bore and 270mm stroke. The girth of the rod is 2cm. The length of the entire unit, when retracted, is roughly half a meter.

    Unfortunately, an SCN6-60kgf-300mm costs dearly. Is there some way to buy an actuator with a shorter stroke and sacrifice some degrees of movement? Right now the chair will move 50-60 degrees in pitch and roll.

    All better ideas, caveats and inspirations welcome.

    Cheers,

    Flying Colander
  2. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    hi
    can you give us the pneumatic working pressure?
    regards ad
  3. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    There is a lot to be considered here:

    -Mechanical fitting of parts. How much modification is needed? Would it be better to build a new frame instead of hacking the old one?
    -Will the SCNx actuators handle these loads? Radial loads?
    -How much easier would it be to go with DC motors as actuators? Mechanically/Electrically?

    In my opinion the performance and speed of the SCN actuators are wasted with heavy loads, their torque drops exponentially as their speed increase. For slower moving heavy loads DC motors will have more even power.
  4. Nima

    Nima Member Gold Contributor

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    hi
    i have help a other guy by first start with a rockandride with 2 scn6 40 kg 200mm/sec and 200mm
    hub.it wars for flight play and it work fine.
  5. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    Thanks for your responses, Adgun & Frakk.

    The operating pressure for flying pneumatically is 1.5-2 bars, Adgun. But the 95db racket of a compressor in a flat is intolerable.

    Frakk, I think you are right about building a motion rig to match the actuators and not trying to retrofit it. Unfortunately, given my limited talents mechanically and electrically, I was hoping to avoid starting from scratch. Wiper motors would be superior but I am no Thanos.

    I was drawn to SimXperience because it was, more or less, a plug & play solution.

    Thanks for your input, gents.
  6. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    Nima,

    I was drafting my response to Adgun and Frakk when you posted.

    So you helped another fellow convert a RnR with SCN 6s? Great news. Would you mind giving him my contact info? I'd love to PM with a few questions.

    Did he experience an sort of overheating shut downs? Can you strip gears in actuators if they are overloaded?

    Is he still flying his RnR?

    Does he just have a monitor mounted or does he have pedals and instrument panels up front?

    Could he give me any pointers? Things he would do different looking back?

    Thanks for posting, Nima. I was just about to chuck the idea.
  7. Frakk

    Frakk Active Member

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    Judging from Nima's post, I think you should give it a try. The starter kit requires no hassle, you only need to modify the cylinder mounts.

    How much stroke do the air cylinders have? The range of movement / leverage will change depending on the geometry and travel of the actuators.
  8. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    Yes, Frakk. I am worried about this too. The air cylinders have a 270mm stroke. The SNC6s available from SimXperience are 70mm shorter.

    As you can see from this picture, the piston arm of X axis cylinder does not fully retract. In neutral position, 150mm of piston is exposed. With a 200mm SCN6 actuator, the X axis cylinder would only have 50mm of useful extension (-20% for safety buffer.) Maybe less X axis travel is the penalty to pay for an easy fix.

    [​IMG]

    Do you know if there is a standard girth for piston arms? The air SMCs I have are 20mm. Can I reuse the Clevis mounts and U-bolt brackets, that screw onto the base of the pneumatic cylinders, for the SCN6s?

    Does anyone know of a reputable Nordic or European distributor of SCNs?

    Thanks, everyone.
  9. adgun

    adgun Active Member

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    Hi
    you,re working with 30/40kgf now
    so 40kgf scn6 actuators are better
    formula : pi x r x r x workingpressure = workingforce
    r=radius from piston
    regards
  10. Nima

    Nima Member Gold Contributor

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    hi
    on test with the other guy in beginn the scn6 many to fast.on start with scn5 plugin
    you start with 10000 speed but the scn6 can go only 7500 hi say 4000 is the best.
    acculation hi want only 60 and the scn6 can go to 1000.but hi dont have a dampering on the costruktion.i drive with four scn6 40kg on my racesimulator and hi have a good speed and is many powerfull.
  11. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    I am not sure I understand about the actuator speeds. Isn't speed controlled by the X-Sim software? Naturally, the max speed has to be calibrated as not to exceed the capabilities of the actuator.

    Does anyone know about a standard girth and thread count for piston arms? Are the screw threads standardized or Metric & Imperial?

    Does anyone know of a reputable Nordic or European distributor of SCNs?

    Thanks.

    F.C.
  12. Nima

    Nima Member Gold Contributor

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    hi,
    in x-sim we have a scn5 plugin.with scn6 the start value in the scn5 plugin is to hi for the scn6.you only use one speed in x-sim.x-sim say go to a position but all the same speed.
    the screws are metric.
  13. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    Yes, I think I am understanding now, Nima. I recall seeing the scn5 plug-in within the X-Sim Profiler. Since the scn5 plug-in is too fast for scn6, how do you lower the speed to 7500 - 4000?

    Has your friend's RnR had any overheating problems?
  14. egoexpress

    egoexpress Active Member

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    Via SCN5 plugin settings in X-Sim. But as long as you havent purchased the actuators, there is no point in wasting time to discuss this in detail.

    Although the thread on the rod end is metric, be carefull. It is fine pitch!

    regards
  15. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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  16. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    I am following the Step by Step Instructions on the SCN5 Hardware Wiki.
    I have just renamed the axes and am now stuck on this particular section:

    1. go to ouput setup and to Synaptrix IO
    2. choose axis and a SCN5 as direct output

    http://www.x-simulator.de/wiki/Image:Software5outputsetup.gif

    10. press the start button

    I do as instructed and select an axis from the “Control Output of Axis” drop down bar. When I go to the “Output Axis Direct” drop down I don’t see a choice as in the example above which should probably read Left / Right actuator or X / Y actuator.

    My drop down has these choices:
    Cylinder #0 position
    Cylinder #0 acceleration
    Cylinder #0 speed
    Cylinder #1 position
    Cylinder #1 acceleration
    Cylinder #1 speed
    Do not use a direct output

    Where have I gone wrong?

    Do I need to each of these parameters separately? If so, how?

    What should happen in the next step when I push the START button?

    Thanks for any help you can lend.

    Flying Colander

    (I apologize if this question has been asked before. The forum’s search function isn’t working again. Cheers.)
  17. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    Sir No Name,

    Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I am not sure what you need the position output from your SCN5 actuator means. Could you expand on that? I thought the purpose of running the test plugin was to establish communication between X-Sim and the actuators.

    I still don't understand what I need to do with the position, acceleration and speed outputs for each axis. How do I define these?

    If the wiki is outdated is there somewhere more current I should be looking?

    I am a noobie so I do need something step by step.

    Thank you.

    Flying Colander
  18. FlyingColander

    FlyingColander Member

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    If the SNC5 is outdated, where do beginners go to find instructions?

    While trying to get X-Sim running, Profiler crashed.

    The Windows report panel read:

    Error Signature
    AppName: profiler.exe
    AppVer: 2.1.0.2
    ModName: joyplug.dll
    ModVer: 2.0.0.1
    Offset: 00001485