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Request (Feature) An option allowing to have Game Vibe outputs mixing into motion DoF axises, especially for Heave

Discussion in 'SimTools Pro & Entertainment Version' started by joe extraknow, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    Hi:

    I wonder if SimTool can be enhanced to add an option allowing Game Vibe outputs to mix into motion DoF axises, especially for heave. I think this would be a great feature.

    I have not tried the Game Vibe with transducers yet, but I have the SimVibe with 7 transducers. I did spectrum analysis on SimVibe and just do not like it. I ended up never use the SimVibe (turned on a few times in the past since I bought 6 years ago).

    My rebuild rig uses 5 SCN actuators, with two on front and two on back and one under for TL. I am using SimTool on front and TL actuators and SimX (SimXperience's so-called "Sim Commander") SW on the back actuators. SimX SW has an option allowing you to add bump, road surface texture and vertical-g into the motion actuators. The results are quite different. I got too much vibration, road bump and surface texture on the back, but almost none on the front. Such sensation overwhelmed by rear actuators and DD wheel from SimX. For front, as I reduced the max/min heave range down to 1.1/-1.1 on SimTool I do feel some road surface texture. A feel of vertical-g impact, bump, and vibrations while running over apex almost does not exist (with very little. Edited on /29) for Assetto Corsa. I understand SimTool is mainly for DIY community and its cost is far less than others commercial SW (SimX, D-Box, CXC), but I think implementation of such feature is straight forward. I love to have this feature on SimTool if possible. (Comparison tests were performed with rFactor2 and Assetto Corsa racing sims on Silverston track with multiple GT cars, over 50 laps on each sim by alternating ON/Off between front SimTool and rear SimX SW. rFactor 2 cars were mainly used as my benchmark cars).

    thanks

    Joe
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  2. Sebj

    Sebj Active Member

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    Joe, what was it about the spectrum analysis that put you off simvibe?
  3. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    I did spectrum analysis on SimVibe with rFactor 2 and rFactor about 6 years ago (front two outputs). Pretty much out of date I guess. The FFT spectrum of rF2 is complex and display pretty rich distribution spread through bandwidth up to 110Hz. There is a clear major high frequency mode of 110Hz. It is persistent and pretty strong. It messed up all. It disappears while both front wheels run over side way or grass. While foot being off the gas pedal, it seems to disappear too. This suggests it may be related to eng sound or RPM(?), although I turned off the engine vibration. There were no clear signature modes. Also, it is not clear to me how actually mount the transducers on the rig frame. The setup yielded laud knocking sound which I really did not like.....
    I figured it was not really worth my time to setup for a motion rig.
  4. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimTools Developer SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    Hi @joe extraknow,
    GameVibe does allot more stuff to the telemetry in order to produce its needed output.
    So much so, that the output is only really good for transducers imho.
    That and it would add a ton of code to Game Engine in order to do something I believe would have negative effects to the rest of the incoming DOF's.

    I really believe that adding GameVibe outputs into GameEngine won't help as much as tuning in SimTools a bit more to get what you are missing from the game.

    Are you using any smoothing? or any other filters buddy?
    yobuddy
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  5. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    @yobuddy

    I applied Washout filter (reversal) on Roll and Sway (just a little, though), seemed work nicely. Nothing on Surge, pitch and heave.
    Can you add an option to allow adding, say RideHeight and vertical-g telemetry, into heave?
    Both rF2 and AC offer 4 tires' rideHeights and also the car rideHeight (that you need I think since Simtool only deal with rigid body 6DoF).
    If all movements for 6DoF are normalized, then sensitivity on heave is really limited I think. Adding RideHeight and vertical-g would help, wouldn't?

    Thanks

    Joe
  6. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimTools Developer SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    Heave is vertical-G output thou.
    I don't understand the ride height, if you move where the axis centers, then you can't use all of the axis.
    As it would be lopsided. (You would have more travel on one side then the other.)
    yobuddy
  7. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Say to simulate lateral g force: you will need two dof movements (roll and sway) so you need many inputs from telemetry data to calculate these two dof positions.
    Similarly, to calculate heave position (1 dof), you only need two inputs from telemetry data: ride height and vertical g. The ride height is very important since it contains road surface texture details and chassis vibrations, small micro bumps, etc.
    Attached is the data I took from rF2 Corvette GT2 on silverstone for RideHeights and vertical g. there are two chassis ride heights, front and rear. I think you may take average (??) as a "center of body" ride height. Or give three options to let user to choice: front, mid, and rear. So one can use accordingly. For 6dof rig, one may take mid heave. For D-box type rig, one can take front and rear heave, respectively for their front and rear actuators/motors.
    To add to pitch movement, you need both front and rear ride heights.

    rF2-RideHeightCapture.PNG rF2-Vertical-g-Capture.PNG
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  8. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimTools Developer SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    Lateral g-force is sway thou, where roll is the current degrees the vehicle is leaning at.
    Heave is vertical G of the vehicle, if you needed to add anything to it, it would not be the vertical g of the vehicle I think.

    The extra1 thru 3 slots in a plugin can be anything a plugin creator wants thou.
    So adding something like this would be possible.
    But I have a feeling that all of the vertical G data is already present in the heave data already.

    Take care,
    yobuddy
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  9. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    I see now. Thanks for your reply.
    It seems that such scheme is based on common fly simulation. If I understand you correctly, the SimTool produces exact amount of motion for a rig in according to the plane motion. That says how much the plane roll/pitch/yaw, then SimTool output exacts amounts of roll/pitch/yaw for the rig. The sway/surge/heave are used for simulating instant g-force effects. It makes a sense for fly simulator.

    For racing car simulator, for an example, while braking from time t1 to t2, the car chassis pitch forward about 5 degree, the SimTool cannot simulate a sustain g-effect from t1 to t2, because the rig pitches only 5 degree. The surge may be felt at amount of t1. Similarly for cornering case. Plus, even for instant g-effect this scheme will not work for 2Dof/3Dof rig since those cannot produce a sway/surge movement. Whatever one can set on sway/surge axis at SimTool for a 2dof/3dof rig, all it does is to translate/add them into a little more pitch/roll motion, instead.

    thanks again,
  10. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimTools Developer SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    You can control of how much it reacts when breaking, etc..
    Sounds like you need a bit of Min / Max tuning for the game?
    take care,
    yobuddy
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  11. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    I think I understand the min/max. I have a problem to understand the % or weight on each DoF/Axis assigned to. User manual/guide did not state that in detail.
    I believe those Weights need to be Normalized to 1 (100%) in order to be meaningful. Say each weight I denote W(i), so summation of W(i) though i shall be 1 (100%).
    I don't know what is i I shall refer to. I have two actuators in the front and one actuator under for TL.

    I assigned three axis at single interface: 1a, 2a, and 3a for these three actuators, respectively. Now I also have a Seat belt tensor install take interface b with two axis assigned: 1b and 2b, respectively.
    Confusions I have that there are 3 "dimensions" problem here:
    The index i could be refer to one of the following dimenion:

    1) DoF (sway, heave, surge, roll, pitch, and yaw -- 6 of them); or
    2) Axis (1, 2, 3 in this case); or
    3) Interface (1, 2, 3 in this case)

    When I assign those weights(i), which one shall I normalize them in according to, 1) or 2) or 3)?

    Thanks
  12. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimTools Developer SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    I'm not sure I understand the question.

    But the basic idea is you have a axis that can move from one end to the other.
    The distance is the 100% movement capabilities of the actuator.
    So in the axis assignments, you can configure this to what's needed.

    Your probably looking at something like this.
    upload_2018-7-13_10-44-10.png

    Because Sway and Surge will most likely not be topped out at the same time that much, I'm using 120% of axis 1a and 2a. So there is a slight chance some clipping may occur.
    But in most situations, it simply results in a bit more motion.

    Take care,
    yobuddy
  13. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    So, on this aspect, your answer is 1), that is: given an axis (say Axis1a -- my right side Actuator) the weights assigned each DoF (max 6 of them) need to be normalized to 100% or slightly high say 120%, see I circled below in the 1st pic.


    So, given a DoF (say sway), for all axises (actuators) with same DoF being assigned, the weights to all axis need to be normalized to 120%. See I circled below in the 2nd pic (your answer is 2):

    weights-DoF.jpg
    Axis-weights.jpg

    Do I understand correctly for both (edit: I guess the 2nd part is not correct. I misunderstood you --- make no sense)?

    thanks
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  14. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimTools Developer SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    I don't really understand the question buddy.

    But you read the axes from left to right to get there total.

    This would do exactly the same thing, it really does not matter what DOF slot you use, the total would be the same.
    upload_2018-7-16_12-47-54.png

    The reason I used 60% both axis 1a and 2a, is because I want the sim to lean and tip evenly with the game.
    Hope this helps!
    yobuddy
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  15. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    I understand what you are saying but not fully understand exactly as no math stated behind. Maybe I re-phrase the questions in other way that may be much clear.
    On the pic above you posted are two dim: lets note that x-axis labeled by i = 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 stand for roll, pitch, yaw, sway, surge, and heave, respectively. Lets note that y-axis labeled by j = 1, 2, 3,4, 5, and 6 stand for Axis-1a, Axis-2a,.....and Axis-6a.
    Each weight (%) labeled as W(i,j) so that, for a 6dof classic motion platform, the weights shall be normalized to 100% along x-axis (given a Axis say Axis-1a, the sum of all weights through roll to surge dof shall be 1):

    6
    SumW(i,j) = 1
    i=1

    Similarly, along the y axis, given a DoF (say roll), the summation of weights through Axis-1a to Axis-6a shall be 1:

    6
    SumW(i,j) = 1
    j=1

    We have 36 weights here for classic 6dof platform, with w= 16.67%. this would be perfect, right?

    Similarly for classic 3dof platform, we have 9 weights with each w = 33.33% that would make a perfect for 3dof.

    Now, what would happen if I have 4 actuators mounted on each corner for a 3dof platform? How can you assign each W in this case?

    thanks
  16. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    I am guessing what you are trying to say is that an equal allocation is made for each axis/force, totally the 100% travel available, and the answer is no not always, as depending on the rig design you may have a lower allocation for say heave and a much higher one for something like sway.
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  17. joe extraknow

    joe extraknow Member Gold Contributor

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    For a 2dof or plus a none rigid body (such as TL, seat belt tensioner, G-seat, etc) rig, I think you are right. You can make arbitrary weight as wish. But as for above two examples: classic 6DoF platform and 3dof platform with 6 motors/actuators and 3 motors/actuators, respectively, those two constraint conditions are required. Otherwise, motors/actuators allocated not evenly and will straggle each other and lopsided. Thus, it will lost accuracy (it cannot reproduce a position as instructed (by inputs from the Game). One may argue the accuracy is not big deal for simulator since all we are care about is a subjective feel. I buy that. But this will result in a lost of resolution/fidelity, and smoothness though.
    Anyhow, I could be wrong on this....seems every one understands but me. Thanks anyhow.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  18. fsutton

    fsutton Member Gold Contributor

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    Sounds like this is why I'm missing micro bumps and road texture feelings. Will this information be added to simtools to translate into axis movement?
  19. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR - The Next Generation Staff Member Moderator SimTools 2.0 Beta Tester

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  20. fsutton

    fsutton Member Gold Contributor

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