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News 4 dof simulator?

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by alexcc, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Hello,

    I would build me a 4DOF simulator and my choice is to stop between two models, I would like to have your opinion, knowing that I would like it to be as realistic as possible, I'd like all the simulator moves ( bench, steering wheel and pedals) and install a "g-seat" bench on the platform. I play some games like "dirt" and "project car".

    I would also like to know what kind of engine use, I thought of windshield wiper motors.

    In addition, the 2nd model of simuleur uses springs to cancel the weight of the driver. Is it really useful to help increase the duration of life of the engines?

    Thank you for your réponce.

    Bonjour,

    Je voudrais me batir un simulateur 4dof et mon choix c'est arrêter entre 2 models, J'aimerais avoir votre avis, en sachant que je voudrais qu'il soit le plus réaliste possible, j'aimerais que l'essemble du simulateur bouge (banc, volant et pédale) et installer un banc de type "g-seat" sur la plateforme. Je joue a des jeux comme "dirt" et "projet car".

    Je voudrais aussi savoir quel type de moteur utiliser, je pensais a des moteurs d'essui glace.

    De plus, le 2ième model de simuleur utilise des ressorts pour annuler le poids du pilote. Est-ce vraiment utile pour aider à augmenter la duré de vie des moteurs?

    Merci pour vos réponce

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  2. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    What motor are required depends on the actual design, anticipated load and expected responsiveness.

    While wiper motors can be used their capacity is limited and I would suggest more powerful wormdrive motors for the type of full frame simulator you are considering.

    I have powerful 50 and 60:1 200W DC motors on my compact sim and I do use an adjustable spring assist to offset the load.
  3. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Thank you for the speed of your answer, I do not know the power supplied set by a wiper motor, but I concluded that I would need something a bit more powerful, cant you give any suggestion of motors for this application with approximate load simulator should be about 220 lbs.

    Merci pour la rapidité de ta réponse, je ne connais pas la force fournisse par un moteur d'essuie glace, mais j'en conclu que j'aurais besoin de quelque chose d'un peut plus puissant, pourrais-tu me donner quelque suggestion de moteurs pour se type d'application sachent que la charge approximative du simulateur devrais être environ de 220 lbs.
  4. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    What you need is greatly influenced by the actual design and the inherent leverage it does or does not have. It would really help if you post a drawing of what you actually intend on building.

    If it is a traditional design you can likely base what you need off what other members have done. If not the you can get an idea of what might might be needed by doing some calculations: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/calculating-basic-linear-speed-and-forces.89/
  5. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Thank you for the link I'll start to calculate engine size I need probably tomorrow and come back with a more detailed plan.

    Merci pour le lien je vais commencer à calculer la grosseur de moteur dont j'ai besoin probablement demain et je vous reviens avec un plan plus détaillée.
  6. momoclic

    momoclic Active Member

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    A l'origine du concept réalisé par Wanegain je sugère les moteurs NHE ou 350 watts proposés sur PCSHM.
    Cependant selon le type de moteur choisi l'adjonction d'un ressort avec les petits moteur NHE s'impose.

    Originally the concept realized by Wanegain I suggest the NHE 350 watts or engines offered on PCSHM.
    However depending on the engine type selected adding a spring with small engine NHE is required.

  7. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Hello
    Upon reflection, I think I'll opt for the concept of Wanegain because I believe most complete at the felt and should provide less stress on the choice of the platform and range of motion since the engines engines are under the driver instead of to the side.
    So it is too early for me to make a sketch of my plan since I must make some changes in the design and recalculate the size of the motors via the link that gave me noorbeast.
    A informative here is a picture of what should have looked the platform with the seat that will be set on the simulator.

    Bonjour

    Après réflexion, je crois que je vais opté pour le concept de Wanegain car je le crois plus complet au niveau du ressentie et doit offrir moins de contrainte sur le choix de la plate forme et l’amplitude des mouvement puisque les moteurs moteurs sont sous le conducteur au lieu d'être sur le côté.


    Donc il est encore trop tôt pour que je puisse mettre une esquisse de mon projet puisque je doit faire quelque modification dans les dessin et recalculer la grosseur des Moteurs grâce au lien que que noorbeast m'a donné.


    A titre informatif voici une photo de ce que devrais avoir l'air la plate forme avec le siège qui sera fixer sur le simulateur.


    upload_2016-3-4_16-37-35.png
  8. momoclic

    momoclic Active Member

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    Maintenant il s'agit aussi de savoir si vous souhaitez un 2DOF avec un joint de cardan, dans ce cas de petits moteurs de 12 à 16 Nm peuvent parfaitement convenir.
    Un 4DOF comme évoqué plus haut avec 4 moteurs de 16 Nm nécessite un ressort pour aider les moteurs.

    Now it is also about whether you want a 2DOF with a universal joint and 100 kg of load, in this case small engines from 12 to 16 Nm can be perfectly suitable.
    A 4DOF as mentioned above with 4 engines of 16 Nm imperatively requires a well-sized spring to assist the engine.
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  9. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    I really want a 4DOF simulator, the picture I put is indicative to show what should look like the frame supporting the pedal and steering wheel seat. I would like to install it on the frame 4DOF simulator discussed above. I do it's not that I'm clear?

    I am also aware that the engines will be bigger, I did not go below 20 nm but I'm still working with the calculated size of the motors and spring, but I'm bug with some calculations.

    Je veux vraiment un simulateur 4dof, la photo que j'ai mise est à titre indicatif afin de montrer à quoi devrais ressembler le frame soutenant le volant pédale et siège. Je voudrais installer ce frame sur le simulateur 4dof discuté plus haut. Je ne c'est pas si je suis clair?

    Je suis également conscient que les moteurs devront être plus gros, je ne pensais pas aller sous les 20nm mais je suis toujours en train travailler avec les calcules de grosseur des moteurs et du ressort, mais je bug quelque peut avec les calcules.
  10. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Hello everyone,
    I just revive me in the calculated to find the maximum load, speed and the length of the cranks to use. I stop on this model Worm Drive Motor 12V / 24V 200W, 180 RPM, Torque 20Nm, with a maximum speed of action of 800mm/s and a total loads for max 4 engine are 377lbs.

    What think you of this engine model knowing that the weight of the platform and the mine will be about 263lbs?


    The cranks will be 5cm started for testing.

    Bonjour à tous,
    Je viens de me relancer dans le calcule afin de trouver la charge maximale, la vitesse et la longueur de la manivelles à utiliser. Je me suis arrêter sur ce model Worm Drive Motor 12V/24V 200W, 180 RPM, 20Nm Torque, avec une vitesse d'action maximum de 800mm/s et une charge totale max pour 4 moteur de 377lbs.

    Que penser vous de ce model de moteur en sachant que le poids de la plateforme et le miens seront de l'ordre de 263lbs?

    La manivelles sera donc de 5cm pour débuté les tests. Que pensez-vous de se tipe de moteurs?
  11. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    I actually used those engines as an example for basic calculation of speed and loads, so you may want to do some calculations on the actual design position of the engines/lever, as I am not sure what you have in mind there: http://www.xsimulator.net/community/faq/calculating-basic-linear-speed-and-forces.89/

    I use the same motors but have swapped the gearboxes to 2 X 60:1 and 1 X 50:1 to gain additional torque for my compact 3DOF.
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  12. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Noorbeast thank you for the link, I read even 2 back and I revalidated my calculations and I always happens with the result that the engine made in the example with a 0.05m lever is ideal for use I would like to do. Can you if you like me just have a look to my calculations.

    Weight of load (driver, steering wheel, pedals, ...) = 263lbs.

    Cam Size = 0.05M
    0.8M/s * 160rpm * 0.10472 (RAD)

    Number of motors = 4
    Maximum load at the end of the lever (4 engines) = 376,69lbs.
    ((20N / 0.05M) * 4moteurs) /4.448 (constant for lbs)

    So if I understand well my motors would be strong enough or have I missed something?

    If I put a gear box with a couple more up, I would have a lower speed so the cam will be longer, but is it an engine for the duration of life will be increased?

    thank you

    Merci noorbeast pour le lien, je l'ai relu même à 2 fois et j'ai revalidé mes calcules et j'arrive toujours avec le résultat que le moteur pris dans l'exemple avec un levier de 0.05m est idéal pour l'utilisation que je voudrais en faire. Peux-tu s'il te plais juste jeter un coup d'oeil a mes calculs.

    Poid de la charge (pilote, volant, pédale, ...) = 263lbs.

    Grosseur du levier = 0.05M
    0.8M/s * 160RPM * 0.10472(RAD)

    Nombre de moteurs = 4
    Charge Maximale au bout du levier (pour 4 moteurs) = 376,69lbs.
    ((20N / 0.05M) *4moteurs)/4.448(Constante pour lbs)

    Donc si je comprend bien mes moteurs seraient assez fort ou ai-je négligé quelque chose?

    Si je met un gear box avec un couple plus élevé, j'aurais une vitesse plus basse donc le levier sera plus long, mais est-ce que la duré de vie du moteur sera augmenté?

    merci
  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    I will have a look when i can but am out visiting with family at the moment.

    Did you account for mechanical loss?

    Depending on design you need to allow for the load per motor not the total.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  14. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Actually I had neglected the mechanical loss. That which makes more sense.

    peas kg = 263 * 0.453592 = 119.294696 kg
    mechanical loss = (119,294696kg * 0.8M/s) / 4 = 23.8589392 engines

    So my engines are too small

    Is that right?

    Effectivement j'avais n'égligé la perte mécanique. Voila qui a plus de sens.

    pois kg = 263* 0,453592 = 119,294696 kg
    perte mécanique = (119,294696kg * 0.8M/s) / 4 moteurs = 23,8589392

    Donc mes moteurs sont trop petit
  15. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    The weight of load (driver, steering wheel, pedals, ...) = 263lbs = 119.29479331kg - I personally think you should err on the conservative side and allow a minimum of at least a 100kg user, so 119kg total for a full frame rig, peripherals and user is probably too optimistic. I have had users who are well over 130kg use my simulator.

    If you want a traditional full frame 4DOF design without spring assist then you could use the specs of the dbox actuators as a bit of a guide to what would be needed, as they are used for full frame 4dof designs. The dbox 250HDi and 400HDi have a maximum vertical lift of 3’’ / 76,2 mm, maximum velocity ± 100 mm/sec. The Max. lifting capacity of the 250HDi is 250 lb / 114 kg and the 400HDi is 400 lb / 182 kg: http://www.d-box.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Specsheet-EN_3in_Actuator.pdf

    To give a bit of context a 3600rpm motor with 36nm torque and 60:1 gearbox would have 60 rpm at the shaft. So using a 20mm CTC lever gives a linear velocity of 0.125664 m/s (125mm/s) with 1800 Newtons. It takes 9.8N per kg to counteract gravity so disregarding any mechanical loss each motor could lift 183kg. So given mechanical loss I would think that you would likely need something like 60:1 gearboxes for a traditional 4dof rig that would perform something like a dbox, which at ± 100 mm/sec is not that fast compared to some DIY sims.
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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  16. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    noorbeast thank you for the time you gave me is very popular but I still struggle to understand how to calculate the mechanical loss. What does this formula mass (kg) * speed (m / sec.) = Force (Newton) required to move a load, if to move the same load 9.8 N is required to move each 1 kg?

    Merci noorbeast pour tout le temps que tu me donne c'est très apprécié mais j'ai toujours du mal à comprendre comment calculer la perte mécanique. A quoi sert cette formule: la mass(kg) * vitesse (m/sec.) = force (Newton) nécessaire pour déplacer une charge, si pour déplacer cette même charge on a besoin de 9,8N pour déplacer chaque 1 kg?
  17. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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  18. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    I think finally have found and after having revised the total weight to 340lbs / 155kg.

    Thus for a 320 watt engine with a rpm at the output 54 and torque 60n (ratio 60: 1).

    The lever has a ctc of 0.07m for a speed 0.4m/s taking into account the mechanical loss of up to 50% the engine should be powerful enough.

    Je crois enfin avoir trouver et après avoir revisé le poids totale pour 340lbs/155kg.

    Donc pour un moteur de 320 watts avec un rpm à la sortie de 54 et 60n de couple (ratio de 60:1).

    Le levier aura un ctc de 0.07m pour un vitesse 0.4m/s en tenant compte du perte mécanique pouvant aller jusqu'à 50% le moteur devrait être suffisament puissant.
  19. alexcc

    alexcc New Member

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    Hello, the plans for my first simulator her almost completed and I am counting to share them with you.

    It still lacks incorporate a stabilizer bar system, I also work for installing a spring. The bench, steering wheel and pedals are not drawn but it is easy to figure where they will be located.

    Feel free to give me your impression.

    Bonjour, les plans de mon tout premier simulateur son presque complété et je suis comptant de pouvoir les partager avec vous.

    Il manque encore à intégrer un système de barre stabilisatrice, je travaille aussi pour installer un ressort. Le banc, volant et pédalier ne sont pas dessiné mais il est facile de figurer où ils seront situé.

    N'hésitez pas a me donner vos impression.

    simulateur 4dof bottom.JPG

    simulateur 4dof.JPG simulateur 4dof back.JPG
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  20. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    A compact design will need a spring assist or very powerful motors.

    You could possibly gain a bit more leverage by extending the top base back a bit and spreading the motors a bit further apart.

    You will need to get the balance right, including with yourself and all peripherals.

    Keep the upper frame as light as you can get it without compromising rigidity.

    I have found I prefer motors that can't be back driven, as I have an adjustable assist spring that balances the user weight but exerts upward pressure on the motor when the sim is unloaded.
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    Last edited: Mar 22, 2016