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FPS..Display HZ and vsynch

Discussion in 'DIY peripherals' started by stroutmail, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    With Rift and 120-144 hz monitors the issue of FPS in multiplayer racing like iracing has reopened the issue.

    Lots of controversy here. But much to learn...keep an open mind.

    Here is an excellent discussion about Nvidia's vsynch.


    http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593
  2. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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  3. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    You will hear from many about the limitations of our eyes and brains making any technological advances "unnecessary". You will hear that you don't need any more images than 60 per second.

    Thorough research will indicate this is wrong..there is research that 200 images per second is closer to our human limit.

    Motion pictures were one of the first motion simulation systems. That 100 year old technology used 24 FPS. It is still used and still "fools the mind" like all simulators do.

    The Rift DK2 is now running at 75 hz. The next version will be at 90 hz. Monitors now being sold in quantity with 144 hz.

    Beware of those that claim everything necessary has already been invented and that "new fangled" stuff is unnecessary. Old tech may be good enough for some but others want to go where no one else has gone before.
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  4. bsft

    bsft

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    With Rift glasses theres going to be more development and discussion. They need to be developed to the point of the complete noob being able to buy them, plug them in, set them up with minimal fuss and play a game.
    From what I can see, thats a fair way off.

    50hz 8ms 32" LCD tv with GTX 560 ti in my computer does just fine thanks. All games locked with vsync on. That will do me for the time being.
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  5. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    The bottom line is if you think they are better and that you need one in order to drive better then get yourself one! Like I said before, if I needed an improvement from what I already have I would know it because I would not be satisfied! That said, I’m not saying I couldn’t improve on what I have now in other ways though. Actually, now that I think about it, my monitor is 3D so it is a 120hz model! Here is what is said about 120hz on my DLP television:

  6. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Your video setup is exceptional. As mentioned in the articles and your post you are likely always running at 60+FPS and 60 hz with vsynch. (Half the 120hz refresh rate) With three big screens more than 12 feet wide that is very good. Smaller with less input lag might be "faster" but much less impressive almost IMAX type experience. Your setup is right up there with the triple DLP projectors. A bigger GPU is all that would be needed for more FPS or more resolution. But if it is good enough for you it is good enough. In fact your set up is probably in the top 10%.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  7. bsft

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    @stroutmail , you should take this discussion to ISRTV forums. They will help inform you.
  8. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Here is a link to a discussion about 60hz vs 120hz. Would seem that if you are in the market for new monitors and fast response is important then a TN 120-144hz monitor using display port is pretty attractive. (If 27 in is big enough for you.) New GeForce 980 has three display port connections and cheaper than Titans.

    http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/8880-120hz-vs-60hz-iracing-triples/
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  9. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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  10. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Here is Nvidia GeForce's solution to managing varying FPS and 120-144hz monitors. Rift has indicated G-Sync will not be supported, but any GPU capable of pushing triple monitors at 120 FPS are likely to be able to maintain the 95+ FPS ideal for the consumer Rift. (Perhaps the biggest "news" from GeForce has been the highly capable 900 series GPU's at pretty attractive prices.)

    Q: How does G-SYNC work?

    A: Several years in the making, G-SYNC technology synchronizes the monitor’s refresh to the GPU’s render rate, so images display the moment they’re rendered. The result: Scenes appear instantly. Objects are sharper. Game play is smoother.
    Since their earliest days, displays have had fixed refresh rates – typically 60 times a second (Hertz). But due to the dynamic nature of PC games, GPUs render frames at varying rates. As the GPU seeks to synchronize with the monitor, persistent tearing occurs. Turning on V-SYNC (or Vertical-SYNC) can eliminate tearing but causes increased latency and stutter.
    G-SYNC eliminates this tradeoff, perfectly syncing the monitor to the GPU, regardless of frame rate, leading to uncompromised PC gaming experiences.
    Q: How much performance gain can I expect to see with G-SYNC technology?
    A: NVIDIA G-SYNC ensures that every frame rendered by the GPU is displayed (up to the max refresh rate of the monitor). It does not increase the rate at which the GPU renders a frame.
    Q: What are the benefits of G-SYNC over V-SYNC?
    A: With V-Sync, the GPU and display are synchronized to the vertical blanking interval where the GPU sends rendered frames to the display on a fixed cadence (60 times per second at 60Hz display refresh). There are two issues for gamers when using V-Sync:
    • Stuttering since the GPU might render frames at rates other than once every 1/60 sec
    • Input response is fixed and limited to 1/60 sec
    G-SYNC addresses these issues since the display accepts frames as soon as the GPU has rendered them which delivers smoother game play and maximizes input response.
    Q: How is G-SYNC different than Adaptive V-SYNC?
    A: Adaptive V-Sync is a solution to V-Sync’s issue of stuttering, but input lag issues still persist. NVIDIA G-SYNC solves both the stutter and input lag issue.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  11. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Why worry about all this new technology that tends to be expensive? Well, one reason some choose to build their own sim rigs is so that the money they save allows them to buy the technology.

    If you are into the general "experience" of driving a race car, then probably the HDMI 60Hz TV is the best thing. For those that are using the sim rig as the "race car" they drive in on-line competition, then this latest greatest and sometimes expensive high tech hardware is attractive. (In real racing, spending $1000 a weekend just on tires to gain 0.5 seconds per lap makes spending $500-600 for a sim monitor that reduces lag seem not so bad. Many racers are paying well in excess of $1000 just for a set of pedals.)

    The biggest part of my budget for the new rig I am building will be the GPU and monitors. In a rapidly changing world, I'd like to make the best choice possible.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  12. bsft

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    Lets add internet speeds to this especially as the competition is online.
    Its not just screens, here in Australia we are still stuck with lousy cable internet connections. This place is about 15 years behind the rest of the world.
    If I am able to use a server in Australia, its a good ping rate of 10-20. If its an overseas server, the ping is 300- and up.
    Doesnt matter how good a driver you are, if the internet doesnt allow and or keep up with the server its accessing, its difficult to win all the time.
    Servers like the Steam ones are helpful, but again, not many people here have really fast speeds. The service is not available or hideously expensive. For me to get 1/2 the speed faster, its would cost me $20 per month more , and all the provider does is turn a dial. Thats a money grab in itself.
    Also actual game time experience matters as well, including car set up in game.
    I was playing race 07 last night and I am a slow driver, however, even with a 300 ping, I changed the cars setup and improved my lap times by 1/4-1/2 second faster. But that still didnt help with server speeds
    Granted I have not played Iracing, which is "considered" the "top dog" of racing online, I have heard some stories of internet speeds making it difficult to maintain a winning streak.
    So at least where I am , unless I move home 2 suburbs to the north, south, east or west, or even to a new area, my NBN network cable is not expected for at least another 5 years. 5-6 mbps up and 24-30 down.
    It was planned to be fast, but thanks to government political hogwash, it changes on a daily basis, and that includes where the next NBN is going to get rolled out. Its gone from fibre optic to copper lines. Maybe it will go to smoke signals next.
    I pay $130 per month for home phone and internet and I get 16 down and 0.6 up. To increase that speed to 1 mbps up, which would help overall latency speed between servers, its $20 per month and all they do is turn a dial.
    So even with lightning fast screens and HUGE graphics cards, its a waste for me as the internet holds everything up.
    This should be considered as well, but as most of the members are not in AU, Id say you are already enjoying much faster internet speeds.
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  13. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! But a bigger GPU, more FPS, or more resolution is not needed or possible with my current monitors. If you look at what I posted earlier again about them, you will see that a DLP with 1920 x 1080 resolution takes 120hz in order to process just that. The DLP module itself is only 960 x 1080. It uses two 60hz cycles; one to display the first half of the resolution and the other to display the second half through a process called wobulation in the chip. Their maximum resolution is 1920 x 1080 so I can't do any better than that. And I already run vsync at 60hz so I am processing as many frames as possible already too.

    I will post a video for everyone later of Nascar Racing 2003 Season for anyone interested in it.

    ps. Fyi, when using 3D on these you actually only get a resolution of 960 x 1080 per eye, but each eye gets the other half of the resolution so together you are getting full resolution when both eyes are open.
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  14. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Congrats..looks like you have optimized what you have. Like I said..you have a wonderful setup..

    I'm sure you would disagree but my design will attempt to take advantage of the speed of ultra low input lag 27" TN monitors running at 120hz and goal of higher than 120 FPS.
  15. bsft

    bsft

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    better get building then............
  16. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Well, if those monitors use a display port that will work with the G-sync GPU’s you spoke of, then you may actually get more frames per second.

    With televisions, the broadcast is either 50 or 60hz depending on what hertz your country’s power grid runs at. So there is no way to get anymore fps with 100, 120, 200, and 240hz on a television. But what it can do is read the same broadcast frame twice with 100 and 120hz and four times with a 200 and 240hz set. It can then take those images and superimpose them on each other so to speak in order to fill in tearing and corrupted data in one frame, with good data from other frame, in order to output a frame that has better quality than any single frame alone will have. At least, that is my take on how it works.

    But display ports were designed to work with computers, so it sounds like with G-sync technology, you are not stuck with either 50 or 60fps only. But, I’m not sure that this monitor can do over 120fps when the clock cycle of the monitor is 120hz unless it works like multi-core CPU’s do. And I don’t understand why you are saying a smaller monitor has less lag if the resolution is the same as a larger one unless it requires larger leds or something that have a higher latency. Or is it simply that there is longer wiring with a larger lcd screen? I guess that is one area where with DLP's size doesn't matter since its image is projected to be large from a very small chip.
  17. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

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    Here are a couple of videos of Nascar Racing 2003 Season. I choose Watkins Glen and Daytona since one is an oval and one is not. While it may be obvious to most already, Simtools does not yet support NR2003 although it may in the next major release. So the motion was done with the software provided on this site before Simtools replaced it. Although NR2003 Season is obviously over 10 years old now, it has outstanding quality and was way ahead of it’s time when it was published imo.

    Please notice what happens to heave when I am driving around a banked curve. Basically there is no motion because the down force is so strong it bottoms out the heave until I start to come out of the corner. If I were to tune the heave axis so it wouldn’t bottom out, I wouldn’t have near the road surface awareness in my heave that I do now.


    ps As you can see, my left monitors DLP module is going bad and I have a couple of pixels going out on the right monitor too. But these can be purchased for $175 dollars each and aren't to difficult to replace myself. Also, while my monitors display 60 fps, my video camera only records at 30.
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    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  18. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Thanks for sharing the videos. Excellent.
  19. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    There are five "timing" terms: A) Refresh Rate of Display (60hz vs 120hz); B) Frames Per Second (FPS Output from Game); C) Response Time of Display (ms GTG); D) Input Lag of Display(ms); and E) Ping (ms).

    Response Time is usually published by the manufacturer. (A TN Display for example often has 1 ms). Response time is fixed by the design/construction of the monitor) Input Lag is related to the process of rendering which many times includes the delay effects of algorithms. Leo Bodnar makes a device for measuring although there is not universal agreement that it is accurate. But input lag can be measured. The "Game Mode" setting of the display usually gives the least input lag.

    I do not know why bigger displays have longer input lag, but I would assume it has to do with having more area to effect. Typically the larger displays have input lags in the 30-50 ms. (Some as low as 20 ms in game mode) Some DLP projectors are in the 19-20 ms area. A smaller TN monitor might be in the 10 ms area. For response time, a TN monitor might be 1 ms, where an IPS monitor might be 10-15 ms.

    Add 10 (response) to 30 (input lag), plus 60 ping and 50FPS on a 60hz monitor running at 30hz because of vsync and you have 133 ms "delay". Add 1 plus 12 plus 60 ping and 120 FPS running at 120hz and you have 81 ms delay. Is the 52 ms difference worth it? Depends on the person and the game. (To me it comes down to whether you can tell the difference between 60 and 110 ms ping--some claim they can't tell.)

    Iracing, according to my info runs three server locations, Massachusetts (USA), Netherlands, and Sydney, Australia. If you want to feel the effects of delay--sign in to a session on a server on another continent and actually participate in close racing.

    The "display" industry that focuses on video replay seems to prefer the HDMI standard and focuses on 3D and 4K for future development. 60hz is acceptable. 120Hz is limited to two broadcasts of 60hz each for 3D. (Beware, some are running two 30hz channels at high resolution.) This group does not like TN monitors because of color accuracy and angle for viewing--they typically like other technology designs and add all kinds of smoothing and antialiasing "software" to "improve" the viewing "quality---at the expense of both increased input lag and increased response time.

    The "monitor" industry that focuses on computer data seems to prefer Display Port. 120-144Hz is possible in 2D. A part of this group includes gamers participating in shooting games where knowing the exact position of the target in real time is important. I could not find any (40" +) displays or projectors that offered 120-140 hz 2D refresh rate. I could not find any displays that allowed 120-140 hz 2D using HDMI. (Some allowed DVI-D) All of the monitors certified for G Sync are TN type using Display Port--the biggest being 27-28 inch and they are all pretty expensive. (And the new GeForce 900 series is providing 3 display ports)

    If 60 FPS and 60hz is good enough, then going big with large HDMI displays or curved screen triple dlp monitors would provide a wonderful immersive experience. If 100+ FPS and 120hz 2D is the goal, for now, the 27 inch triple monitor seems to be as big as it gets---but as long as the display is 1 foot or less from the steering wheel it is big enough.
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    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  20. stroutmail

    stroutmail Member SimAxe Beta Tester Gold Contributor

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    Here is a slow motion depiction of active 3D glasses. Perhaps the simulation produces a good experience, but alternatively shutting off one's vision one eye at a time 30 times per second (or 60 times if the monitor is 120Hz 3D capable) just does not seem like it would make me a faster or better race car driver.