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K8055 - Dual Wiper Motor Control with Variable Speed

Discussion in 'SimTools compatible interfaces' started by bigtalltim, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. kubing

    kubing Member

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    you try so hard men...good job :cheers:
  2. supermodfan

    supermodfan 2DOF Wheelchair motors

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    My Motion Simulator:
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    Tim,
    I have been giving your Kicker situation some thought and was wondering if you could just add 2 relays to turn on a motor with limit switches for traction loss off 2 digital outputs? Traction loss to the left, and the motor goes full speed clockwise till it hits the limit switch and stops.... or the relay turns off when traction is gained... Traction loss right triggers a relay to turn motor counterclockwise in the same fashion. Possibly a third output to center the the system with 0 traction loss at perhaps a lower voltage so returning to center is not as abrupt... Not sure how this could be achieved but I am sure you could figure out a self sustaining system using a couple of relays for logic... that would only be powered when 0 traction loss is present and the seat is not centered. Does that make any sense at all HAHAHA
  3. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi Supermodfan

    Yes - it makes perfect sense...

    This is totally outside my realm of experience, so I speculate... but I'm guessing that the tail slide motor would so massively benefit from position feedback (which wouldn't be available with just the K8055 on its own) that it's a non-starter (I'm working on that btw!)

    Some of the sims I have seen in youtube videos - like the 4star sim with the huge red actuators I posted earlier - dont actually seem to have a maximum limit for how far they will turn to simulate traction loss... I saw one video of the 4star at an exhibition where the camera starts looking over the drivers shoulder, but the setup ends sideways on to the camera for a good while - not great filming, but shows the range for which it can turn! (I'm still trying to find the clip again! - I will edit this post if I can put my hands on it... not in youtube).

    If we were to go for a motor that simply spun one way or the other when the traction loss signal was present, it would be possible to achieve with:

    4 D/O outputs and a H-Bridge pulse routine as per the original k8055 setups (pre-relay)
    3 D/O outputs with the setup Frakk suggested and the Multiwatt 15 with hard stop or running stop
    2 D/O outputs and a hard wired Multiwatt 15 (again Frakk) to be forward-hardstop-backwards

    Maybe not such a bad option...

    I'm currently looking more at the options around vibration to enhance the driving experience... maybe tying a couple of vibration motors in with exhaust noise or rev levels, maybe a couple for rough surfaces - Still very much playing with options... the lack of feedback isnt a problem if the extra motors are only to be used for vibration - in fact, only one output is required per motor, so there is more to play with!

    I'm also looking at ways of incorporating other cheap (and probably modded) hardware into the setup...
    I have had some good sucess today with a sub £10 hardware hack to introduce another 4 feedback pots into the setup.
    It has worked perfectly, but I am having some difficulty with writing profiles and it's getting late... TBC next weekend!

    Tim
  4. FernVeilleux

    FernVeilleux New Member

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    Hi bigtalltim

    Your project is very interesting and I would like to know if you have any experience with VM140. I plan to use it for my 4 dof/4 wiper motors project.

    I just posted some informations about it that may be of interest to you concerning bungees and springs.

    View My project : Zero-gravity, 4dof

    Fern
  5. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi FernVeilleux

    I did look at a number of other boards before finally going with the K8055 - as far as I recall, I decided not to use the VM140 as it only has 1 PWM output and it has a low PWM frequency too - only 15.6Khz

    ...I went for the VM110 (prebuilt K8055) instead, as it has enough PWM outputs to speed control two motors

    Interesting concept in your thread - I will watch your development with great interest!

    Tim
  6. dexteria01

    dexteria01 New Member

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    Hi,

    Can anyone tell me where I can change the PID values when using the 8055.

    Many thanks

    Mark
  7. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi Mark

    Apologies for late reply - have been out of the country working again and only just got back!

    Go into the output setup area in force profiler, and double click on the output that you want to change in the list of sequence steps.
    In this window, you will have to enable dynamic output - if you do not do this, the Kp, Ki and Kd settings will not be visible (as in the pic below).

    HowToFindPIDSettings.jpg

    Tim
  8. dexteria01

    dexteria01 New Member

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    Hi Tim,

    No need for any apologies, this is a long term project for me, no hurry, and just when I can find the time lol.

    Thanks for the info, don't know why I dindn't look there.

    My setup is K8055, Pololu 24-23c, 24v wheelchair motors (geared) and a 50A 24v supply (ex telecoms).
    I have made up a small 5v filtered reg using a LM317 and have inverted the pull down PWM signal from the 8055 using a BC547 NPN transistor so that at 0 the motor is on stop rather than full duty.

    The inverter works fine when sending commands using the send or clear buttons in the interface tab, 0% is motor stop and 100% full RPM. However when I try to command the motor via sender test sliders 0 is stop but the duty is reversed otherwise ie 1000 on the slider is stop (or very slow anyway) and for eg 100 or thereabouts on the slider is full RPM. I'm guessing something is needing reversed somewhere in the profiler.


    Should add that I removed the line in the STOP tab in the output settings.
    Cheers


    Mark
  9. dexteria01

    dexteria01 New Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4mJysK_ZJo&feature=player_detailpage

    short video of my test setup

    Mark
  10. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Nice work! :clap:

    Have you thought about designs to include those motors?

    I have been crazily busy with work, so my own project has advanced very little in the last month, but I have found some great suppliers and products - my actuator has changed design, and I'm now looking at a hybrid between the linear and sarrus type...
    In many ways, more like Rolands, but with gear reduction to boost the power.

    For transmission equipment - chain, or belt - check out http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Transmissions-1001-c

    I am still working with minimum budget (just for the challenge!) but am looking also at costing some alternative setups using v-belts as well as gear and chain reduction which I will test later on.

    Tim
  11. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi all - after a long absence, I'm back!

    I have worked in Barbados, Coventry and Amsterdam since last doing any serious work on this project, and it has been killing me - so I'm back with a vengence!!

    It has been far too long since I had any time to myself to play with designs, and improve the rig, but I have had loads of time on planes and trains to think about concepts and really challenge my designs up to this point.

    So far, I got the K8055 and relay circuit setup working perfectly, and I'm really glad to see that adbgg has kept the K8055 flame going! Nice work dude - your sabretooth solution works really well and those seat movers certainly look the part!
    It's really good to see people getting themselves up and running with homebuild sims so easily!
    :cheers:

    I am happy enough now that the electronic hardware solutions using K8055s (both my relay, and ADBGGs sabretooth setup) are mature as solutions go, so I am turning my attention back to another part of this project:

    That is the part of getting absolutely the most power and range of motion out of a wiper motor that is physically possible,
    and to do this absolutely as cheaply as is possible.

    I figure that this will benefit everyone - not just the K8055 contingent - so it is definitely one for the community!


    Soooooooo... to recap progress so far.
    I have played with 4 designs; My protoypes so far, whilst effective, have all had their own specific drawbacks.

    To summarise their performance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO-NaX_00I0&feature=player_embedded
    first test. Frame concept is good, but the wiper motors are desparately underpowered for moving a seat wheel and pedals assembly.
    Would be ok for a seat mover alone but I wasn't satisfied with the speed, range of movement or control of this setup.

    This was my first real sucess:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if0nzgkNcgk&feature=related
    This had superb control, but no matter how hard I tried to ballance the actuator with bungees, I could not find a satisfactory solution under load and the wiper motors were again under powered - effectively, this rig just changes the direction of the wiper motor and makes rotary motion linear. The bungee did boost power, but again, not good enough for a sim-pit style set up (especially with the screens on the frame also).
    It was tricky to build too - it took me quite a while, and I am an experienced carpenter - the setup was complicated even further by the positioning of bungee anchor points so I moved on.

    After an abbortive attempt with a screw thread style actuator (which was completely useless), I changed track:
    STA71983.JPG STA71972.JPG


    The real breakthrough was the introduction of gears and chains.
    My first attempt at a linear actuator was a big success - difficult to forget the rocking couch! (my wife certainly hasn't!!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grfrH1DTS20&feature=player_embedded

    This had loads of power, and was a big step in the right direction, but was limited in its range of movement...

    The chain moves at 10 inches a second (which is about right in a linear actuator) but it was over running and stressing the switches - the actuator arm didnt stop straight away when the power was cut.

    So where to go next?

    Each of the setups i have developed has had its problems, but they also had some benefits:
    The linear actuator has loads of power
    The sarrus linkage gives loads of linear movement from the rotary input
    Using switches and diodes gives safety and allows for better control
    Gears and chains give superb power increase for speed reduction
    The mechanical resistance in the system means that position holding is not necessary - just turn the motor off!

    The design for the next actuator (which i will have built in prototype this weekend) combines all the benefits, whilst addressing some of the problems of each of the builds.

    The design must be simple
    It has to be easy to build - less than 2 hours per actuator for anyone
    It has to be super cheap - no complex or custom parts... It must cost in total less than 10Euro
    It has to use a standard cheap 12V wiper motor from ebay
    It has to produce enough power to move a sofa (or simpit)
    It has to move the simpit/sofa SIGNIFICANTLY further and faster than the linear actuator would allow
    It has to have stop switches at the extremes of position and diodes
    It has to include a pot or slider for control.

    I have a design in which I have great confidence of achieving all of the above...
    Watch this space - back to the workshop for now

    Tim
  12. bsft

    bsft

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    Hello Tim, great job you have done there. I am looking at the K8055 with some motor drivers for the next frame I build with two truck wiper motors. I thought about relays, but this may not give me the motion like a control board. The relays are on off, whist the control boards are better controlled motion. What do you think?
    Cheers, David.
  13. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Hi David!

    There are several ways you could set up relays. The original method (that you will find in the X-sim demo profiles) does indeed just switch the motors on and off, and uses a pulsing routine to govern speed...

    This is not how my solution works - Check out the first post in this thread to see videos demonstrating just how much control you can actually get with relays... yes, the relay changes direction, but by coupling this with the PWM outputs on the K8055, you can get some really nice speed control going.

    I posted a detailed explanation of how the relay solution works (including the use of PWM for motor control) on page 14 in post 9... definitely worth a look as background!

    in terms of control, I think this clip says it all:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if0nzgkNcgk
    OK - it may be a touch slower in response time than the AMC and H-bridge, but I'm not looking for twitching motion to give realism - the force feedback of my wheel gives loads of vibration that carries through the frame... I'm all about creating a full motion sim pit that throws the driver around the room!

    Not too many details to go on, but my advice is that there are a few things you should consider:

    If you are just looking for a seat mover, the truck wipers may be enough on their own - but be careful... Truck electrics run on 24V, which means that you need the adapted relay circuit (P12,p9, and p14,p9)... and by the way - it doesn't follow that that 24V motors will be more powerful than 12V motors... it has more to do with the construction of the motor armatures and numbers of windings.
    If you want to move a frame rather than just a seat, wiper motors probably wont cut it unless you overload them (like by using 15V) which reduces their life (the cog that is driven by the wormgear screw inside is only made of nylon which wears out if heavily overloaded).

    As point of fact, I use motors from 4x4s, which appear to be slightly more powerful (I guess so that they can deal with mud etc).

    You mention a frame - unless you are looking at a joyrider type construction, keep watching this thread to follow my development of
    a homebuild actuator that uses a standard wiper motor and gearing reduction from bike parts that you can get from the bin at any bike store for nothing!

    I think you should definitely give it a go with the relays - if you get stuck along the way, just drop a post into this thread and I'll point you in the right direction!

    Good luck!

    Tim
  14. bsft

    bsft

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    Hello Jim and thanks for that. I will read the thread again , as it takes me 4-5 times to get it!
    As for wiper motors, here in Australia there are 12 volt truck and bus motors as well as 24v. I found a dealer of new motors here in Sydney. He informs me that most car motors have between 10-15 Nm of torque, which, as we have seen will push a person around on a frex frame. The larger truck-bus 12v motors have 30Nm of torque. Granted they will use a heck of power though.
    As for a joyrider style frame, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKAcXtnxHXU I have already done that with two car wiper motors I found. I do not know what they are from, but they do the job well. I am running 20-21 amps max current on the jrk's currently. They have heatsinks and a fan on them though.
    My next plan is a frex frame with wheel and pedals moving which is currently in construction. I am going to test weight balance to see if it will move with a screen as well. Should be a matter of balance.
    Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread, back to your work and progress!
    :cheers:
  15. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    OK.... some good progress made this weekend

    Initial indications are that the vertical lifting power of the crank arm is approx 3.2 time greater than the force of the wiper motor alone... The sofa was lifted with 2 x power in my linear actuator prototype, which gives some extra power to play with.

    The gear ratio in the linear actuator was 14/28... 4 turns down to 2 per second
    the ratio in this new setup is 14/44. 4 turns down to roughly 1.3 turns per second
    (so you only need half a turn for full range of movement)

    Connecting the vertical arm (attached to the crank arm) directly to a frame would give superb power, and a vertical range of approximately 300mm, which would travel through the entire range in 0.75 seconds. This will be my first full test - though I will have to connect the breaker switches with diodes and feedback pots first, and that will happen next weekend.

    The sarrus linkage extends this range of movement to a useful maximum of approx 45cm (longer arms mean more range of travel, but would also reduce the power. There is more power to play with, but I don't believe enough to sustain much more than a 45cm range).

    For simplicity of the build, I will experiment further without the sarrus linkage for now.

    Some pictures to show the prototype - I had to break it apart to usefully demonstrate the workings. The design is likely to remain pretty much unchanged from that shown here, though I will need to fiddle around with the crank arm positioning to prevent fouling with the finished build.

    prototype 4 -1.JPG

    prototype 4 - 2.JPG

    prototype 4 - 3.JPG

    prototype 4 - 4.JPG

    Tim
    • Like Like x 1
  16. bsft

    bsft

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    This looks good. :)
  17. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    definitely getting there!

    Much much simpler than previous builds, and more power... and cheaper... watch this space ;)

    Tim
  18. shannonb1

    shannonb1 Well-Known Member

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    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, AC motor, Arduino, JRK, 4DOF
    Videos? I thought maybe you had moved on Tim
  19. bigtalltim

    bigtalltim New Member

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    Not moved on - just a drastic change of pace with work!

    Hopefully videos this weekend ;)

    Tim
  20. bvillersjr

    bvillersjr Active Member

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