1. Do not share user accounts! Any account that is shared by another person will be blocked and closed. This means: we will close not only the account that is shared, but also the main account of the user who uses another person's account. We have the ability to detect account sharing, so please do not try to cheat the system. This action will take place on 04/18/2023. Read all forum rules.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. For downloading SimTools plugins you need a Download Package. Get it with virtual coins that you receive for forum activity or Buy Download Package - We have a zero Spam tolerance so read our forum rules first.

    Buy Now a Download Plan!
  3. Do not try to cheat our system and do not post an unnecessary amount of useless posts only to earn credits here. We have a zero spam tolerance policy and this will cause a ban of your user account. Otherwise we wish you a pleasant stay here! Read the forum rules
  4. We have a few rules which you need to read and accept before posting anything here! Following these rules will keep the forum clean and your stay pleasant. Do not follow these rules can lead to permanent exclusion from this website: Read the forum rules.
    Are you a company? Read our company rules

traction loss - slow break out, fast return

Discussion in 'SimTools DIY Version' started by Pit, Nov 9, 2014.

  1. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    30,409Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,088 / 31 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    Hi all (again :) )

    I am posting a video soon, traction loss (TL) is working like the hell, but not as well it could be. Please can someone help in puzzling out how to set up SimTools to get TL in a certain way working:

    1. ) Car is breaking out. This should happens slowly, consequently the motor should move slower.
    2.) Car ends traction loss and stops breaking out, the motor must go back very fast back to the center.

    Now it is a mix of all.

    PS: I have 3,5" or 9cm available on each side for TL.

    Thanks for help.
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,133
    Occupation:
    Computer Technician
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon - USA
    Balance:
    47,902Coins
    Ratings:
    +5,027 / 16 / -0
    @Pit
    May I ask how exactly do you have yaw setup?
    Are you using extra1 from a plugin or are you using only yaw with washout on?
    yobuddy
  3. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    30,409Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,088 / 31 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    I am using extra 1. Should I try something different?
  4. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,133
    Occupation:
    Computer Technician
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon - USA
    Balance:
    47,902Coins
    Ratings:
    +5,027 / 16 / -0
    Well you can adjust how fast the extra1 (breaks out) by altering its max min file.
    The return rate should be able to be set by turning on washout.
    And then (how much it takes to break free) point can be set with the deadzone filter.

    alternatively, you could use the strait yaw value instead of extra1.
    set the yaw return rate with the washout filter.
    And then set the (how much it takes to break free) point can be set with the deadzone filter.

    Both ways are designed to work.
    But to be honest, at the time I wrote the filter for washout, no one was using it.
    So some fine tuning may be required in future releases.
    Please try both and let me know what you think.

    yobuddy
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. bsft

    bsft

    Balance:
    Coins
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    try setting each force on the traction loss individually and play a game, test and re-test till you find which one it is.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,779
    Occupation:
    Owner/Operator- Moxleys Rantals
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
    Balance:
    17,054Coins
    Ratings:
    +2,504 / 30 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Traction loss is a tricky beast to get set properly. Too much and its Chaos on your normal Driving line. Too little and its hard to feel when you need to really feel it.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    16,568Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,831 / 32 / -1
    @yobuddy, So does extra1 use the yaw value for traction loss too? If not, what value out of a game is used on extra1 to simulate traction loss?
  8. yobuddy

    yobuddy Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator SimAxe Beta Tester SimTools Developer Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,133
    Occupation:
    Computer Technician
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon - USA
    Balance:
    47,902Coins
    Ratings:
    +5,027 / 16 / -0
    @BlazinH, without getting to complicated, the traction loss is a formula made up of the inputs from the game.
    It is not just the Yaw value, and therefore both ways could be used for traction loss.

    With some feedback from you guy's from trying both ways, I believe we can tune it in a bit more and make both ways easier to setup and use.

    yobuddy
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    30,409Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,088 / 31 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    I think I worked it out. Axis 3, Extra1, 100%. Smoothing 1, DeadZone 5, Tuning Center 3.2 (max, min). SMC3 very low Kp, very high PWMmax. Now the rig is breaking out mostly when the car does and the moves are very linear. Video will follow soon.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,779
    Occupation:
    Owner/Operator- Moxleys Rantals
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
    Balance:
    17,054Coins
    Ratings:
    +2,504 / 30 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    wow thats a Low Tuning center # for Extra1. Im at 18-20 pending game have you watched the Tuning #'s while "in motion"
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  11. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    30,409Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,088 / 31 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    It is to bumpy and slippery to watch the tuning center while driving :p.
  12. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,779
    Occupation:
    Owner/Operator- Moxleys Rantals
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
    Balance:
    17,054Coins
    Ratings:
    +2,504 / 30 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Do you have the "skidpad" track on AC ? I used that a lot for reference on the traction loss, the Big Turning circle's work good for seeing how the body weight/body lead and tire weight transfer all feels.
    • Informative Informative x 2
  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages:
    20,461
    Occupation:
    Innovative tech specialist for NGOs
    Location:
    St Helens, Tasmania, Australia
    Balance:
    144,596Coins
    Ratings:
    +10,741 / 52 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    3DOF, DC motor, JRK
  14. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    16,568Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,831 / 32 / -1
    I see @yobuddy. I personally like complicated myself because I get into details. However, I understand if you can’t share more.

    But, from what I can tell, without having traction loss on my rig, it appears it may be necessary to make adjustments for each car depending on its breakaway point? I think if the breakaway point is early or delayed even a little, it won’t be a very useful feedback. Knowing more may help in understanding how it needs to be set up to work correctly. But in the end it’s probably just a matter of trial and error testing anyway.

    It would be nice though if developers supplied a flag or something that would signal when tire slippage starts; like when the tires start screeching. Then we could use the yaw or yaw acceleration rate to do the rest after that!
  15. RufusDufus

    RufusDufus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    681
    Location:
    Adelaide Australia
    Balance:
    15,601Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,008 / 8 / -1
    @BlazinH based on my early involvement in the traction loss testing... my understanding is that it is calculated as the angle between the motion vector of the cars physical movement and the vector the car is actually pointing in. I believe the values in the tuning center for traction loss are typically in degrees.

    So I found to get a good result, I set the Tuning center values (degrees) to match the degrees of swing each way my traction loss rig has and then set the scale in the axis assignment to 100% (or whatever matches full movement of your traction setup). It also seemed good to have some smoothing applied but not too much. If you want to exaggerate the traction loss then you can reduce the tuning center values.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. BlazinH

    BlazinH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, USA
    Balance:
    16,568Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,831 / 32 / -1
    Thank you @RufusDufus for the information. The method you described sounds a lot more accurate than attempting to use yaw alone.
  17. Blame73

    Blame73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,210
    Location:
    Italy
    Balance:
    8,255Coins
    Ratings:
    +1,103 / 2 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, DC motor, Arduino, Motion platform
    Hey @Pit I'm looking forward to seeing your video of TL in action.
  18. Pit

    Pit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Gold Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Balance:
    30,409Coins
    Ratings:
    +3,088 / 31 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    DC motor, Arduino, 6DOF
    • Like Like x 13
  19. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,779
    Occupation:
    Owner/Operator- Moxleys Rantals
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
    Balance:
    17,054Coins
    Ratings:
    +2,504 / 30 / -2
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF, 3DOF, DC motor, JRK
    Not sure how i didn't post this here :confused:

    • Like Like x 5
  20. Arielnac

    Arielnac Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Argentina
    Balance:
    65Coins
    Ratings:
    +32 / 0 / -0
    My Motion Simulator:
    2DOF
    Hi. Why does it mention SMC3 if when you use simtools, SMC3 doesn't work. SMC3 is only for testing.