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gear motors vs scn5

Discussion in 'New users start here - FAQ' started by Donerb, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    Lol, Love it buddy, Stealth Black Area 51 version cant be seen or heard, kinda like the proof above. ROFL
  2. PiaMan

    PiaMan Active Member

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    That's the point. The people giving these opinions on how loud they are don't own them/potentially never even tried them personally and are going by one or two people who complained. By that logic the two of us who complained in this thread about backlash noise should have been enough for the forum to no longer recommend DC motors.

    I searched for "SCN Loud" on the forums and got all the way back to 2015 with only @Nick Moxley posting how loud they are to potential purchasers or people who already purchased ("boo actuators" back in march 2017). I know there was 2 or 3 threads from before I joined but i haven't seen any since. Also to my knowledge none of those posters switched to gear motors and were happier.

    In this whole thread not one person who owned SCN jumped in and said "ya they are so loud."

    sorry Nick i didn't put effort into the video because i knew no matter what you would still say "it couldn't be so, must be a lie because some other guy on the internet said once so there is no way i could believe this Piaman guy on the internet. He's for sure trying to pull the wool over our eyes" ... :p

    Anyways I'm happy with my super stealth black label models ;) Which are just the normal ones. I'll let it go now. I think I've added enough actual data and information to the thread that someone can jump in and decide from the that what is best for them.

    :cheers[/QUOTE]
  3. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    I agree with @SeatTime, use what suits you.

    If there is to be any further meaningful discussion then perhaps it needs to be on measured data rather than perceptions, for example here a member measured and reported the noise level of SCNs, the same could be done with wormdrive motors, though in both cases design and isolation are also factors: https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/scn5-scn6-noise-levels.2589/

    As for searching @PiaMan use the Google Custom Search box near the top right of pages and terms like 'SCN noise' or 'worm motor drive noise', there are multiple results for either.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. bruce stephen

    bruce stephen Hammer doesnt fix it, must be electrical

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  5. prodigy

    prodigy Burning revs

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    Let me jump in and say "yea they are so loud" :)

    When I first received them, I was shocked with the noise. I mean, I watched some videos before buying, but all those videos were with audio from the game too, so I couldn't really distinct actuator sounds from the game. I was not prepared for that pitching sound. It drove me nuts.

    I don't use headphones while driving and I also can't turn up the game volume so high to eliminate the SCNs because of the other people in the house.
    My first thoughts were - "Man, I got to do something about it or I am gonna return them or sell them".

    So I decided to try building a soundproof boxes for those actuators which turned up really good, it eliminated the pitching sound for at least 50%.
    Nick put one video of mine in some previous post in this thread, I also have a second video with soundproof SCN sound.

    Here it is for comparison, both videos recorded from same distance, same camera, no sound manipulation through software or something like that:





    These were V1 boxes I have made 3 years ago, in meantime I made 2 more versions where I reduced the size of the boxes but maintain pretty much the same sound reduction %.

    BUT - as for SCN actuators performance alone - I had much better motion experience with them, contrary to wiper motors and worm motors rigs I used before SCN.
    Much easier to make a rig with them, they are fast and responsive, no potentiometers, no levers, no backlash play - in last 3 years I had zero problems and didn't have to change a thing on them.
    No codes to write, easy setup with Simtools or Simxperience software, I use both, each for different games.

    But they are also costly.
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  6. Nick Moxley

    Nick Moxley Well-Known Member

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    What data might that be ? pretty sure you posted 1 video of some clacked out rod ends claiming it to be the motor's. Then a video which is questionable in its intent. You cant go from many users who know for a FACT actuators are louder than Gear motors, To a Silent video where you cant hear them at all. It doesn't work like that.


    moot point, this is beating a dead horse, There's plenty of meat for a New Guy to chew on here. Video's speak much louder than words, Pun intended.
  7. PiaMan

    PiaMan Active Member

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    @prodigy - so you're that guy who gave @Nick Moxley his hard fast opinion!!! :p I think you answered it right there. I can/do drive at a volume that is like driving in real life - i.e.: simulator. How come Nick doesn't believe you about performance being better? Just takes the parts he wants to hear I guess. I also like how Nick turned
    into this
    and then repeated it over and over again.


    Well Nick:
    . A detailed description of why that backlash is important. A video of the noise you said doesn't exist from a year ago so it had nothing to do with this debate. Not sure why my video is of questionable intent. It is the sound from my cockpit. See below for more videos...

    @Nick Moxley -
    - What intent do you think I have really?

    - What data have you provided other than someone else video which you have no idea of the recording conditions and a picture of a triangle you say you can feel (QUESTIONABLE)? Decibel levels, backlash data, video without game sound - i see nothing from you but opinions on something you don't own. Have you even tried one? How many actual hours do you have on an SCN rig to have developed this firmly cemented opinion?

    - If you accept prodigy's opinion they are so loud over everyone else's, why do you not accept that they have better performance from the same person?

    OK - moving onto noise:

    for reference taken from http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html:
    60dB = conversational speech, air conditioner
    75dB = toilet flushing,vacuum cleaner
    90dB = squeeze toy, arc welder

    This is worm gear decibel measurements - 12" away from motor, only one motor moving with rod disconnected

    [​IMG]

    This is SCN taken from 12" triangle and slightly behind the rear 2 SCN5 (16" between SCNs). Note this is all 3 SCN doing the first full calibration so one of the loudest and most continuous noises. So one worm gear motor against 3 SCN. Note the average is almost identical. The 5 dB difference in ambient noise level is the sound of the cooling fans on the DC rig. Both of the peak numbers are me picking up the phone to stop the meter. So the important ones are Avg, min and max. Note also that this is not a professional dB meter, however the numbers jive very close to Bernie's measurements for SCN 5 and 6 my rig coming in at +2db.

    [​IMG]



    This is my rig at MY regular volume. Nick, you don't have to believe it. I know you won't. The other "questionable" video was a better indicator as that was inside of the 5 speakers but since Nick deemed it "questionable" here is another from outside the rig. Another point, I do drive with headphones on occasion and I don't wake the girlfriend with just SCN.

    And one more of the DC motor sound, me firmly holding the rod end and just moving the backlash. You can hear the ambient noise pick up as I move away from the motor, phone still touching the metal. When the phone touches the motor you can hear the ticking inside the motor as the ambient sound drops off due to that location being the loudest.

    And apparently some others have units that do as well:

    I don't know how else I can demonstrate over the internet to you guys that it is the motor making that sound. Maybe yours don't, but these do.


    and another video....



    yup totally the (disconnected) rod ends! I previously mentioned it gets amplified by metal but the sound is from the motors initially!!!!


    So there you have it:

    1. SCN are better performers fidelity wise
    2. Noise level is similar - but different sounds

    What other data did you need @Nick Moxley ?

    I do really want to know why my intent is questionable and specifically why it is any more questionable than yours with you only having personal experience with one system yet criticizing the other system every chance you get.
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  8. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Active Member

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    Hello,

    This is great thread guys, thanks to all the contributors. I am currently considering ProSimu T1000 vs DOF Reality, and I already notice all those pros and cons mentioned in this thread (sheer power of motor throwing you vs fidelity of actuator, noise level differences etc).

    One thing I am trying to understand, would those high pitched noises of SCN6 be heard upstairs? I watched some videos of noise, but it hard to tell how far in house such sound will travel. I race in closed headphones, so squeaking won't bother me (it will confuse Crew Chief though, but that's another story). But main concern is sanity of my family. If I race in the basement with closed door, would those sounds be heard upstairs? I suspect not, or barely, because they are high pitched sounds.

    What do you say guys? Cheers!

    Edit: from reading excellent and detailed post just above mine, I now highly doubt SCN6 sound will be a problem upstairs at avg 66db. Not sure how well higher sounds penetrate drywall walls, but it is lower sounds that travel further I believe. Still, would be glad to hear your inputs.
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  9. PiaMan

    PiaMan Active Member

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    Cant at my house. My bedroom is directly above my sim and gf sleeps through races. I do have a crawl space between floors but id be inclined to say no or just so faintly depending on your house contstruction and layout.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Gadget999

    Gadget999 Well-Known Member

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    I use wheelchair motors with steel gears - they are almost silent

    How many dof is your sim
  11. PiaMan

    PiaMan Active Member

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    Mine is 3dof with scn5.

    I have no personal experience with scn6 but from another post DB measurements i think they are similar.
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  12. leonard

    leonard New Member

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    I use a set of SCN6 and I cant understand why someone will say they are not the loudest possible solution for motion ever. The neighbours UPSTAIRS are complaining, let alone the ones downstairs. I can use them only in special hours or when punising the neighbour for playing loud music after aloud hours. It does not bother me because I race in VR, but I feel my wife is really making an effort even when there is like 3 walls between us. I believe the noise from motors design is mostly a design problem because some of them are very very quiet. I had a chance to try a DOF reality rig and I was wowed by the silence factor. But once I went up the hill in Waltkin glens in iRacing and did not feel the newly paved track spot, I was like well that noise from the SCN6 is worth it. With the SCN6 that spot feels like air time and the actuators gets quiet for like a sec. I dont know if it was simtools setup for the motors that didnt allow that detail to be noticeable, but this is my experience. I see motors as a fun way to be thrown around and actuators as an extra input device to actually drive. Not talking about G forces pseudo simulation here, but road and suspension feel. Its a bit strange because motors are supposed to be faster which you think might give more detailed information, but the setup I tried did absolutly not. I think that once you have tried the actuators you cant go back, but if you have not, just dont because that squeeky noise will kill you :)
    One last thing that might be placebo effect, but different car setups feels different with the SCN6 while with the motors it did not change the feel.
  13. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    My observation of published DOF reality rig settings is that the Axis Allocations are way too high (often many 100s of % in total) and I am yet to see one that has a highly tuned and refined profile, so I would not consider such rigs as indicative of how DC powered rigs can perform, as DC powered rigs are quite capable of high speed and fine motion simulation.
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  14. leonard

    leonard New Member

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    Not that I am a simtools wizard, but when I told my friend about how numb it was on road details, we did play a bit with numbers but did not get anywhere near the SCN6 feedback. You are saying that they are capable of high speed and that I agree with you from specs, but you did not say anything about road textures detail? Are you talking about high speed as speed from angle a to angle b, or speed of transmitted infos (rate) they can handle? because for me it feels like a resolution matter.
    I have to move for work for like a year now and I am looking for something really quiet and was considering DOF reality (cheap quick fix) but not sure about the rig capabilities for motion.
  15. noorbeast

    noorbeast VR Tassie Devil Staff Member Moderator Race Director

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    What I am suggesting is that the ability to render high fidelity motion, be it for road texture or anything else, is a function of speed, precision and tuning.

    For example SCNs could not render the same detail of say a ProSimu actuator, which is much faster under load and hence the latter can render more fine motion detail. I am not suggesting SCNs are bad, in fact there are physiological limits to what the human body is capable of detecting in terms of motion changes, and beyond those speed capabilities no longer matters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_simulator

    A DC powered rig can have high linear speeds of 600mm+/s. Wormgears do give a little away in terms of precision, as they have a small amount of free play, but at high speeds on a well set up rig with slight positive weight bias that slight free play is not enough to really obscure fine detail compared to a much slower SCN. You can check out some of @Nick Moxley's wiggle hat videos, or even my POV video, which aims to try and visually show what fine motion detail feels like.

    The most likely issue with a high powered DC rig, or even other types, that will affect fine detail performance is the one I pointed out, a poor motion profile, particularly one where high Axis Assignments of many hundreds of % which will result in clipping.

    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  16. principiamacb

    principiamacb Member

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    I completely agree @noorbeast . When I first built my sim I was a bit disappointed in the motion I was getting.

    Did some hardware modifications (Sabertooth, removed some backlash from gearboxes, shorter angle on control arms etc) and followed the setup guide for tuning centre and WOW, my rig is completely different. Ive very quickly got it setup with really detailed motion.

    Ive not played much with filters but I have used boundary on heave and smoothing on pitch, roll and sway.

    I would be interested in what more experienced guys on here use as regards to filters. It'ed be nice to know whether im heading in the right direction and any tips?
  17. principiamacb

    principiamacb Member

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    Another thing, my motors only run at 85rpm (slow compered to some on here) with a 60mm arm and that still produces a linear speed of 534mm/s.

    Still faster than scn5's.
  18. SeatTime

    SeatTime Well-Known Member

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    Another thing to consider for DC or similar motors is the PID system/algorithm, not only how effective it is, but how it has been tuned to the actually load. I have noticed differences between the old and the new 1280 controller due to their different PID system/algorithm. Much more data detail can be tracked with the old 1280.
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  19. principiamacb

    principiamacb Member

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    I think the linear speed of DC motors does have 'something' to do with an ability of doing vibration and resolution of micro bumps and details of road texture.

    I wouldn't suggest DC motors are better than scn5's. Im always going to loose some fidelity due to the small amout of backlash im my system but seeing as my whole motion rig cost less than 1 scn5 ill stick to it for the time being.
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  20. sulfail

    sulfail Member

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    The cc liniar motors are easier to install but noisier, the dc motors need potentiometers and are more complicated to adjust, but they are cheaper and cheaper and if they are silent